Walther PPQ with leading issues

[robertbank]

My PPQ with polygonal rifling tends to lead up in the first inch or so from the chamber using Lyman 356402 lead water quenched cast bullets sized .357. I am going to try putting gas checks on the bullets base. Not sure if it will work, any thoughts. I assume the leading one gets using polygonal rifling is from gas cutting. Yes/No?

I cast my own bullets and compete with the gun. For competition I use FMJ bullets to keep the smoke down but for practice I do use my own cast bullets to keep the cost within reason. I practice a lot for IDPA.

Take Care

Bob

[Dusty Bannister]

Why water quench? Try air cooled and see if the reasonable hardness does not resolve the problem of leading in the beginning of the barrel. If you are using LLA as a TL, consider a better bullet lube. If lube smoke is an issue, powder coat.

If you still are having issues, check to see if you are not sizing down the cast bullet by using the crimp setting for jacketed bullets that are probably .355" or maybe .356" and reducing the diameter of your cast bullet.

[robertbank]

Dusty polygonal rifling has a major issue with lead bullets. I do not use a roil crimp. I use a slight taper crimp just enough to straighten the case after belling. I have experienced leading in the past using WW alloy in the 9MM which was solved by using harder bullets. Less gas cutting.

Thank you for replying though. I may try softer bullets if the GC idea does not pan out.

Take Care

Bob

[jorg0370]

I'm curious which side of the powder load you use. Also, have you considered changing lube or trying PC?

I am a rookie with most of this, just trying to learn.

[robertbank]

I'm curious which side of the powder load you use. Also, have you considered changing lube or trying PC?

I am a rookie with most of this, just trying to learn.

Not yet just trying to see if anyone has had some experience with GC's in stopping leading issues. I do PCoating as well. Might be my only solution if I want to use lead bullets.

Take Care

Bob

[winelover]

With gas checked bullets never had leading issues, no matter what size. BTW, to this day, I've never slugged a barrel. I started casting in the mid 70's. No internet, learned by reading, trial and error. I started with gas checked RCBS iron pistol moulds.

RCBS moulds tend to cast undersize. Especially, with WW alloy. Compounding the problem, RCBS recommended the use sizers were the same size as jacketed bullets. For example, .355 for 9 mm, .357 for 38/357 and .429 for 44's. So that's what I used. Never had leading issues. All my alloy was air cooled and a approximate of WW alloy. BTW, all my loads were full throttle. Occasionally, accuracy suffered............mostly keyholing, especially with the 9mm. Different powder choice, cured that. Granted, all this time I was using GC bullets.

Slugging barrels, measuring/uniforming cylinder throats, plunk tests were unheard of, back then.

That being said, I own nothing with polygonal rifling. I currently cast and load for six 9mm firearms. Five different manufacture's pistols and a CZ Scorpion carbine. I use air cooled alloy (BHN 14-15) sized to .3585 on a Star, lubed with Carnuba Red. Half dozen different moulds, most all gas checked designs...........mainly because of the increased velocity of the carbine. All my 9mm loads function in all of the six 9mms.........I'm not about to keep separate dedicated ammo.

I don't powder coat. Never have and never will. I purchased 1000 PB powder coated bullets from a vendor on this site, to see what the hoopla was about. I opted for .357 size. Was satisfied with the bullets but accuracy was not an improvement over my hand cast ones. They didn't lead the carbine. I ladder loaded ten shot groups, with all relevant powders I have in my stash.............Red dot, Bullseye, Unique, AA#2, AA#7, N340, True Blue, W231 and Power Pistol. No spectacular groups.

Never found reloading for the nines as being rocket science. I've reloaded more 9mm's than any other caliber. My 9mm Browning HP, was the second firearm I stated reloading/casting for. First, was my Python.

Besides the 9 mm, I cast and load for 38/357, 44 Special and Magnum, 45 LC, 308W and 338W Magnum. Haven't shot a jacketed bullet in probably 30 years, other than a few factory pistol carry loads.

All my handguns calibers have complementing carbines, except the 45 LC. Nowadays, when I order custom moulds, I split the cavities up with PB and GC designs. PB bullet for the pistol and GC for carbine..............I guess you could say I'm an advocate for gas checks. YMMV

Winelover

[onelight]

I find the leading problem in polygonal barrels an interesting topic. I have loaded for a variety of different guns with polygonal barrels mainly with Hi-Tek commercial cast with little to no leading and if you add the guns of my shooting buddies in to this probably at least 20 different pistols. In my experience if leading starts and you don't get it removed the leading accelerates faster the more bullets that are put through that bore.
The way my group shoots we go twice a week and shoot usually two different pistols each with 50 to 100 rounds per gun we all clean our guns after each range trip with one of the group it's every other trip , we all shoot the same bargain Hi-Tek bullets 125 grain in 9mm over Alliant Be- 86 mainly with velocities in 1000 to 1100 velocity range. None of our barrels have been modified in any way and we do find a seating depth that will plunk before working up loads all of us use the Lee FCD Basically we don't jump through any hoops just load and shoot.
It may be that we don't get bad leading because compared to many here the no. of rounds between cleaning is quite low . We just shoot cause we like to so don't shoot large quantities to stay sharp for competing .
Anybody else think it may be high round counts between cleanings with less than ideal bullet barrel combinations that may cause the leading accumulation problems some have ?
None of what I posted is in any way critical of how any one else loads cleans and shoots , just curious as to why we get away with our simple way with 9mm with no leading issues both Polly and traditional rifling .

[ioon44]

I have been shooting PPQ's for the last 3 years and don't have problems with leading. My latest is a PPQ SF the barrel in slugs at .357" so I size .359" to .360", I cast at about 12 BHN and Hi-Tek coat.

I found that lead water quenched cast bullets will lead faster than a 12 BHN bullet and any bullet that is not .002" over the barrel da will cause leading.

Make sure that the sizing die is not swaging down the loaded bullet, it has to get in the barrel at .002" over da.

As far as high round counts between cleanings, I have not had to clean any lead out of my barrels for a year or more but I inspect the barrel after each shooting session to be sure it is good to go for the next match.

I am currently using Alliant Sport Pistol and don't have much if any powder residue after shooting a match.

That is my 0.025 cents worth.

[reddog81]

I use wheel weights lubed with carnuba blue sized to .357. I use a Lyman M die for expanding the cases. If your using a standard 9mm flare die you’re probably not expanding the case enough and then swaging the bullet down when seating.

[robertbank]

I think some clarification may be in order. The reason I have settled on .357 sizing for all my 9MM guns using WW alloy water quenched was due to the fact I had two guns that would shoot key holes when .356 bullets ran through them. This was particularly annoying with my former S&W M&P FS gun i used for IDPA 2007- 20010 before I moved on to the PRO version of the gun with a 1-10 twist barrel.

I went with water quenching them because of the fact the 9MM is a high pressure round. When I experienced zero leading issues in my 9MM guns I just went with it. At the time I had a number of CZ's, a Tanfoglio, , a Norinco 1911 in 9MM and a couple of High Powers. The Norinco 1911 and the High Powers are gone now. The CZ's remain along with the Tanfoglio , a M&P Pro and of course my Walther PPQ M2 & Match. None of the guns ever exhibited any leading using WW alloy water quenched sized .357. I never experienced any leading in any of my guns using Balllard rifling. It has only recently I started to get leading with the Walther's. I now tend to use plated or jacketed bullets when competing and lead in the Walthers when practicing and that is when I noticed leading starting to appear after about 100 rds. Soft lube or hard made no difference. I settled on hard lube because the Star Lubricater is way faster lubing higher volumes of lead bullets than my RCBS Lubricater that still performs Youman service for my 45 Colt and rifle cast bullets where I like to use soft lube. No reason other than I like to.


I have know idea why polygonal rifling seems to attract leading. Now it seems to me all polygonal rifling is not the same. I loaded up some bullets for a friend of mine with a 9MM Glock and it leaded up way worse than my Walther's with less rounds. I know there is a lengthily thread on this forum where some never experience leading and others do etc. I don't own a Glock so I have never bothered to research the leading issues with that pistol.

Winelover I was happy to learn of your experience with GC's Now with standard rifling I have never had any leading in my 9MM guns using WW alloy water quenched naked bullets. I started making my own GC'c for one of my .357 molds using Pat Marlin punches and ended up getting one of his Plain Base dies for my .357 PB bullets. I have used roofing aluminum sheeting and pop can aluminum with satisfactory results. I am now trying the PB GC's out on my 356402 bullets to see if it illuminates the leading in my Walther's.

Moving on I have a couple of PCC;s in 9MM and I size my 9MM bullets .357 for them as well. To date I have experienced no leading in my Ruger GP-100, CX4 Storm (Trudeau has banned them so it will get turned in when and if he stays in power long enough to find a company to run his thieving program), CZ Evo Carbine a friend had, Trudeau wants that one too, and a Kel Tec Sub2K since sold. I have not GC'd them nor experienced any leading with rounds running 1350 fps.

Given the info to date I think I may be on the right track with the GC's.I intend to find out why polygonal rifling is prone to leading as well. It seems I am plowing new ground here. I will report back when I have more experience with the GC's in my Wa;ther's.

Take Care

Bob

[ioon44]

Polygonal rifling is not prone to leading, you need to slug your barrel to see what size bullets the PPQ needs.

I shot around 200 rounds yesterday in a USPSA match, got home and the PPQ SF barrel is still clean.

[robertbank]

Polygonal rifling is not prone to leading, you need to slug your barrel to see what size bullets the PPQ needs.

I shot around 200 rounds yesterday in a USPSA match, got home and the PPQ SF barrel is still clean.

Congratulations. Wow your gun is clean. Simple solution, just slug the bore and size accordingly, simple. If my bullets sized .357 are .002:
larger than the bore is that is what is causing the leading? Is leading caused by squeezing the bullet to tight or by gas cutting? Is it likely Mauser would make a barrel .003 over SAMMI specs?

In my quest for info on this subject I found out one nugget. Glock barrels are not true polygonal barrels. They have Ballard rifling with rounded flats. Gaston went with it apparently. True polygonal rifling has rounded (flats) if I have that description right. One reason wy you can shoot lead in Glock barrels. You do have to clean the barrels though which would not seem to be the rigor for many in the Glcok fan club. I have not yet expanded my knowledge much on the GC solution at hand to my leading issue. I do believe the GC will resolve most of the issues but time will tell. I woke up to 4" of snow this morning so today's shooting will be limited to running rounds through my S&W Victory .22, a gun that has my attention these days. I'll leave the PPQ to a day where I can practice some drills for IDPA in relative comfort and run off some GC bullets in the process.

Take Care

Bob
loon44 how did you make out in the match? The SF has had mixed reviews from what I have read. Pricing is a bit steep for what you get over the PPQ Match. Have they solved the magazine issues?

[Eddie Southgate]

I never experienced any leading in any of my guns using Balllard rifling. It has only recently I started to get leading with the Walther's. I now tend to use plated or jacketed bullets when competing and lead in the Walthers when practicing and that is when I noticed leading starting to appear after about 100 rds. Soft lube or hard made no difference. I settled on hard lube because the Star Lubricater is way faster lubing higher volumes of lead bullets than my RCBS Lubricater that still performs Youman service for my 45 Colt and rifle cast bullets where I like to use soft lube. No reason other than I like to . / Bob


Do you clean the barrel thoroughly after shooting the jacketed and before shooting the lead ? Just a wild assed notion but could the polygonal rifling hold copper in a way that allows the lead to plate itself to the copper ? In plating , copper is used as a base to allow other metals to stick to steel .

[robertbank]

Eddie that could well be. I do clean my guns after each range visit and based upon your comments I'll pay more attention to the barrel after shooting plated or jacketed bullets. My base assumption when it comes to leading is gas cutting but I would not exclude other reasons. To be clear I have not shot the gun to the point where the rifling was plugged with lead, just like you described. The leading is just noticeable. Thanks for the insight on what you observed.

Take Care

Bob

[Eddie Southgate]

Bob,

Never had the problem myself , just reading what you wrote about how and when the leading first became an issue for you . You said you noticed it when you started using lead after using the Jacketed or plated bullets you normally shoot . I do not always clean a gun every time I shoot it unless I see a particular need and even when I do I do not always use a product that targets copper . I'm not meaning to imply a significant amount of either metal built up, just a noticeable amount , specifically the lead . Copper tends to stick pretty tight to most other metals whereas nickel or chrome for instance sticks to steel or iron but not tight enough by itself to not be prone to peeling back off . To avoid that they initially plate with a thin layer of copper then follow with the chrome , nickel , gold . Some times it takes three metals to get the plating to adhere correctly and have the right color .

Try a good cleaning with some copper solvent before you shoot your next lead in the Walther , might help might not . My oldest son just bought that same pistol so I will be very interested to see how you resolve this issue as I intend to cast for it and teach him to load 9mm .

Eddie

[ioon44]

Congratulations. Wow your gun is clean. Simple solution, just slug the bore and size accordingly, simple. If my bullets sized .357 are .002:
larger than the bore is that is what is causing the leading? Is leading caused by squeezing the bullet to tight or by gas cutting? Is it likely Mauser would make a barrel .003 over SAMMI specs?

In my quest for info on this subject I found out one nugget. Glock barrels are not true polygonal barrels. They have Ballard rifling with rounded flats. Gaston went with it apparently. True polygonal rifling has rounded (flats) if I have that description right. One reason wy you can shoot lead in Glock barrels. You do have to clean the barrels though which would not seem to be the rigor for many in the Glcok fan club. I have not yet expanded my knowledge much on the GC solution at hand to my leading issue. I do believe the GC will resolve most of the issues but time will tell. I woke up to 4" of snow this morning so today's shooting will be limited to running rounds through my S&W Victory .22, a gun that has my attention these days. I'll leave the PPQ to a day where I can practice some drills for IDPA in relative comfort and run off some GC bullets in the process.

Take Care

Bob
loon44 how did you make out in the match? The SF has had mixed reviews from what I have read. Pricing is a bit steep for what you get over the PPQ Match. Have they solved the magazine issues?

Bob, The match went well other than the temp staying around 38 deg F, cloudy and windy.

I got the SF in Nov 2019 and have shot it in 2 to 3 matches per month with out any problems. I like the shape and size of the grip better than the PPQ Poly frame, I use the large grip insert for my Poly PPQ's. The SF weighs about the same as a 1911 and feels much the same. I start shooting Walther PPQ's about 5 years ago and have them in 9mm, .40 S&W & .45ACP.

I don't bother to read reviews and never had a magazine issue.

"Glock barrels are not true polygonal barrels". I really agree with what you stated here, most people don't know there is a difference. I see you posted this on the Walther forum also, people need to be aware of the difference.

I know we are comparing Apples to Oranges with you shooting lubed bullets and me shooting Hi-Tek coated bullets but still cast bullets should be .002" or more to seal the bore.
I was a commercial bullet caster for 14 years before coated bullets came along and advised my customers to slug the bore and use a correctly sized bullet.

Make sure that the sizing die is not swaging down the loaded bullet, it has to get in the barrel at .002" over da. Have you pulled any of your loaded bullets and measured them?

[Handloader109]

I started off at .356 and and was seeing keyholing and a bit of lead in my PPQ. Changed to .358 and both went away. I PC and typically use either wheel weight, or range lead. I don't usually water quench. I have and didn't see any difference. Go a bit bigger and PC and hopefully it goes away.