Electrical Question

[Teddy (punchie)]

Generally AL wire is for over say 30 Amps.

Generally not use to area where one would have say movement, shaking etc.

You would have to or should (shall as code would say) use de-oxy where AL is used. What is basically mineral oil and petroleum-jelly.

You sure its not copper-clade ?

Other then fuses being better then a breaker for amps/blowing breaker can fail, fuses have bad people make bad choices. No reason to change ether one. Unless, most reasons already talked about, load demand higher, water damage, rusted out, oxidation, service wire (cable) needs replaced (no reason to keep old panel and new wire, unless panel is like new inside).

[farmbif]

I knew I should have been an electrician. that's quite the retirement plan, replace everything every 20 years.

[sharps4590]

I grew up helping Dad who spent several years as an electrician before becoming a lineman. Started in the trade full time in '77, passed my Journeyman's test in '79 and my Master Electrician's test in 1981. Spent 42+ years total in the trade with 32-33 as a contractor. The guys are correct in that if your main load center is in good condition there shouldn't be any need to replace it. Whoever said aluminum conductors being acceptable for branch circuits was changed in the 60's I believe is also right. IF installed correctly it is acceptable for service conductors. However, not everyplace in the country has code enforcement, at any level, municipal, county or state. Where I live now there is no inspection/code enforcement in the county nor is there any by the state. So, if your home has AL conductors used for branch circuits and was built in '74 it was a code violation....if there was any code enforcement in your area at that time. Anyway, if it does, a splice to a copper pigtail and the copper pigtail going under the screw of the device should prevent further problems.

I never heard, anywhere, ever, that a load center should be replaced about every 20 years. As was said, 200 amps. is sort of a standard for most homes.

[Petrol & Powder]

In 74 house should have never been wired with Al. Al was outed in the 60s. Revamps are allowed with pigtail (screw version) or backstabbed (Al rated) sockets. Cu plated Al. is acceptable. Some F-P panels are 'claimed' to be fire hazards. Any 'darkening' of wiring needs replacement. Breakers go bad after a (long) while and today's versions don't last as long (imports). Years ago I inspected the knob and wire of her relative's (1900 or so) house. Fine shape. Many older homes have added panels to handle the normal 200 Amp service, how legal the 'fix' is depends on local code.
Not an electrician but yeas ago I bid the ceiling lighting of KCI (500 & 350W merc in concrete cast egg crate), Co that got the job did Al and we got the cost plus fix. $$$.

Whether or not it SHOULD have been wired in "74" with aluminum wire is totally irrelevant. It WAS.

SO, moving forward...........the OP still has a question.

[iomskp]

If the panel is in good shape and new breakers are still available, I see no reason to replace it.
BTW I am an electrician.

I'm with you Flailguy I am also an Electrician

[Iron369]

I’m an electrician and I would suggest that anyone that can afford an upgrade in a residential building less than 3k sqft, do it. All of these “I know someone who said...” don’t understand what a modern home needs to supply the power needs of most families. Electrical codes are the bare minimum for safety. Anything less is A Home Depot electrician and only cares about separating you from your dollar. Feel free to pm me and I’ll look into any codes you are actually required to have to update your service.

[Lloyd Smale]

If the panel is in good shape and new breakers are still available, I see no reason to replace it.
BTW I am an electrician.

X 30 year lineman here and I agree. You replace breakers when they fail and a box is just a hunk of steel. Nothing to wear out. Now if i had aluminum wires id be thinking of a total rewiring job.

[Wayne Smith]

Total rewiring job - two story house - was off the cuff estimated to between $40,000 and $50,000. Not that I wouldn't want to do it, but the money isn't there. If I were in my 30's or 40's maybe, but we simply don't have the time left to invest in that.

[Rcmaveric]

Lol.... everyone's an electrician and I am the odd one out who isn't a house electrician. I kind of feel left out.

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[MaryB]

Decades ago, GONRA lived in an Al wired house in Northern DE.
SO - Went thru all the receptacles, switches, ... (rated for Cu ONLY!),
sanded the Al wire under the screw,
added a dab of NoAlox grease.
Retightened screw.
Never hada problem....

Current house in PA is all Cu BUT hasalotta "pushin" connectors.
Replaced all these with "screw ons" - made me feel better......

The stab connectors work just fine on quality outlets and make it a lot quicker to get a job done. If using big box store el cheapo outlets nope don't trust them!

[jonp]

Lol.... everyone's an electrician and I am the odd one out who isn't a house electrician. I kind of feel left out.

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Me too but it's good to hear from professionals and get advice. I bought this old house several years ago and some of the wiring was AL. The box was new and the real estate lady said new wiring except the AL to the stove so I pulled that immediately and installed a propane stove. Hot water heater was the same so out it went and an on demand propane installed. After looking about I found the wiring was not new, just the box. The wiring was old 2 strand shielded frayed in places and bare in others. I found a bundle taped with cloth electrical tape in the attic that had 5 wires coming out of a clump the size of a baseball. Bought wire at Loews and started pulling through the plaster walls. Job sucked and required crawling around the attic and under the house in a 2ft crawlspace in the dirt. Replaced every outlet, too. Box was 100amp so a few years ago I had a 200Amp put on the side of the house and the wire feed buried from the pole instead of pulling on the side of the house. Sub box inside is 100Amp and 100 amp still outside to wire the garage and a breaker for a generator to run the fridge and freezers. No code enforcement here so I went online to the State and National to make sure it at least followed that and got many pointers from my wife's dad. At least now the lights don't dim when I turn on the vacuum.

I agree with MaryB. If you get the outlets from a box don't use the stab.

[lightman]

I'm another thats been in the trade since the early 70's. I see no need to change the panel out every 20 years. While they do occasionally fail they don't really wear out. Loose connections can burn the lugs and the wire, loose breakers can burn the buss bar and loose wires on the breaker can cause the breaker to fail. And its not necessary to mention a lightning strike! Most brands offer a breaker thats rated for switching duty if you have the need to use the breaker as a switch. Its not a bad idea to to occasionally check the connections for tightness.

Sometimes you outgrow a panel and it needs to be upgraded. Added sq footage, added appliances, up-grades in heating/air conditioning, ect can cause you to out grow a panel.

With a 2 story house your options are limited. Personally I would go through the house replacing switches and receptacles making sure that the new ones were rated for use with aluminum. They will have al/cu stamped on them someplace. And most modern ones are dual rated. I would cut the very ends of the wire off, wire brush it clean, put a drop of inhibitor on it and wrap it around the screw on the new device. The quick plug on the back of devices is nothing guaranteed trouble, whether copper or aluminum. This could be a slow job but nowhere near as expensive as a total rewire.

Personally, if I bought another home I would check for aluminum wire and finding any would be a deal breaker. But there are acceptable ways of installing it. The quick wire in the back of the device ain't one of them.

[Wayne Smith]

For those who claim Al wire was 'outlawed in the '60's' a little history. Every USArmy 105mm shell contained six pounds of copper, every 155mm shell contained eight pounds of copper. During the Vietnam war copper became quite dear. This entire development is Al wire because of the cost. There may have been local rules denying it's use but no such thing as a national ban.

[.429&H110]

I'm not an electrician anymore.
A/C is away more fun, but A/C burns wires, too.
30 years ago I was plagued with customers wired with aluminum, and the disposals blew the aluminum apart, like burned it. Off.
Outlet is under the sink what joy.
Good sharp razor cuts out the back of the cabinet.
Dig the box out of the sheetrock
Find the aluminum feeder move the box to it.
Set another box to pickup the other loads
they're usually burned off too.
Need a disposal outlet controlled by a aluminum wired switch.
Thing is to use no-lox and Al-Cu rated caps.
Only use copper to the outlet, only sidewired.
Connect the dots put the paneling back
now two boxes or sometimes three.
I like 4x4 deep boxes, and a plug for the disposal.
Shorten the aluminum back, make good splices.
I did dozens of these, the damp undersink doomed the aluminum backwired outlet. And the installers cut the #10 aluminum short, counter and light fed through the outlet backwires. Whole thing was a black mess.
You don't have to replace aluminum feeders if only you terminate them properly.
If you get no-lox on your fingers, you become a good conductor...

[wv109323]

I will somewhat disagree with "a box is a box" and does ot need to be replaced. I had a 1970's mobile home that was wired with aluminum wire and a fusebox. Not breakers. Occassionally many of the circuits would de-energize for no apparent reason. I removed all outlets and used no-ox on the terminals. Three or four outlets showed signs of being smoked up.
The problem was that one leg of the 220 had beenso hot over time tbat the copper had annealed and would not make good contact with the main fuses. The copper was suppose to snap over the bus bars but the copper was soft and had no "spring" to make good contact.
The mobile home was used as a hunting camp. I ran copper wire to additional outlets and used them. I also put in a new breaker box.
So in your case if the breaker box showed signs of heat, I would replace it. Sure it is an additional 500 bucks but what is the price of a house fire?
Aluminum wire has its problems. Oxidation and expansion which leads to loose connections. Loose connections leads to higher currents and high currents can lead to a fire.
That said, probably 99% of homes never get a properly sized breaker box replaced after 20 years.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Guy I know had a weird issue; Cold water pipe next to their junction box kept getting super hot & boiling the water in it.

Turned out the neutral & ground wires had gone bad & the bonding to the water pipe was carrying the entire house current to ground, which it "isn't optimal" for.

They had a tough time debugging that one & getting someone to fix it, weird one.

In the UK some breaker boxes were plastic at one time, I'd sure replace THAT sort of box in a hurry.

[.429&H110]

NH has a lot of old houses with four fuses.
The backs would burn out one by one leaving
the whole house on one 30 amp fuse.
One little old lady could knock about the house
and never overload it,
been like that for thirty ye-ahs

Once upon a time I composed a ditty
as I rewired one old money-pit

Ol' Ms MacDonald had a fuse
e-i-e-i-oh
And on this fuse she had a lamp
e-i-e-i-oh
With a toaster here and a TV there
Here a spark there a spark everywhere a sparkspark

Boss didn't think it was funny...

[MaryB]

Me too but it's good to hear from professionals and get advice. I bought this old house several years ago and some of the wiring was AL. The box was new and the real estate lady said new wiring except the AL to the stove so I pulled that immediately and installed a propane stove. Hot water heater was the same so out it went and an on demand propane installed. After looking about I found the wiring was not new, just the box. The wiring was old 2 strand shielded frayed in places and bare in others. I found a bundle taped with cloth electrical tape in the attic that had 5 wires coming out of a clump the size of a baseball. Bought wire at Loews and started pulling through the plaster walls. Job sucked and required crawling around the attic and under the house in a 2ft crawlspace in the dirt. Replaced every outlet, too. Box was 100amp so a few years ago I had a 200Amp put on the side of the house and the wire feed buried from the pole instead of pulling on the side of the house. Sub box inside is 100Amp and 100 amp still outside to wire the garage and a breaker for a generator to run the fridge and freezers. No code enforcement here so I went online to the State and National to make sure it at least followed that and got many pointers from my wife's dad. At least now the lights don't dim when I turn on the vacuum.

I agree with MaryB. If you get the outlets from a box don't use the stab.

Just the CHEAP ones form the big box stores. Menards carries 10 packs of Pass and Seymour high quality outlets, same ones my dad used for wiring houses when he was an electrician! Heck same model number still after 30 years! They cost more and the pile of them is usually dusty, I talked the store manager into a discount to move 3 boxes of them off his shelf when I was redoing the house. Wnt back for 10 more for the garage 4 years ago and that pile looked the same still LOL everyone was buying the 50 cent ones, these run $2-3 each...

[MaryB]

NH has a lot of old houses with four fuses.
The backs would burn out one by one leaving
the whole house on one 30 amp fuse.
One little old lady could knock about the house
and never overload it,
been like that for thirty ye-ahs

Once upon a time I composed a ditty
as I rewired one old money-pit

Ol' Ms MacDonald had a fuse
e-i-e-i-oh
And on this fuse she had a lamp
e-i-e-i-oh
With a toaster here and a TV there
Here a spark there a spark everywhere a sparkspark

Boss didn't think it was funny...

When I bought this house it had 2 cartridge mains fuses, a second set of cartridge fuse to feed a range, and 4 glass fuses. Knob and tube wiring... first thing I did was add a 100 amp breaker box, max I could run on the meter socket. Since I am the only one living here, don't have an electric range(put gas in that corner) the only major loads are the water heater and dryer. By the time the dryer is needed the water heater has cycled and caught up from a hot wash load. So I easily get by with just the 100 amp supply. Since I know what is running and when I never have the problem of doubling up 2 heavy loads.

If there were more people in this house it would need a 200 amp service and a complete upgrade of the meter socket and the wires coming down from the weather head. They replaced the overhead from the pole a few years ago, it is rated for up to 300 amps. That used to be 3 cloth covered wires with the insulation all falling off, winds would short it together blowing the transformer fuse leaving my house and the neighbors house in the dark. I finally had to sic the PUC on them because it was a fire hazard, sparks fell in dry leaves one fall and it dang near burned the house down, burned most of the backyard!

[lightman]

When I bought this house it had 2 cartridge mains fuses, a second set of cartridge fuse to feed a range, and 4 glass fuses. Knob and tube wiring... first thing I did was add a 100 amp breaker box, max I could run on the meter socket. Since I am the only one living here, don't have an electric range(put gas in that corner) the only major loads are the water heater and dryer. By the time the dryer is needed the water heater has cycled and caught up from a hot wash load. So I easily get by with just the 100 amp supply. Since I know what is running and when I never have the problem of doubling up 2 heavy loads.

If there were more people in this house it would need a 200 amp service and a complete upgrade of the meter socket and the wires coming down from the weather head. They replaced the overhead from the pole a few years ago, it is rated for up to 300 amps. That used to be 3 cloth covered wires with the insulation all falling off, winds would short it together blowing the transformer fuse leaving my house and the neighbors house in the dark. I finally had to sic the PUC on them because it was a fire hazard, sparks fell in dry leaves one fall and it dang near burned the house down, burned most of the backyard!

I've worked in places that had those old concentric services and was always thankful that my company never had them. The main problem was that the insulation on the wire was rubber (some said it was live rubber) and the sunlight eats it up. The neutral is stranded wire thats wrapped around the outside of the cable jacket. Basically a fault waiting to happen. Service men in those areas got lots of overtime with blinking lights and partial power. Did I mention that I was thankful that my company never had that stuff???