Feasibility of Swaging as a Business

[rbt5050]

been their and done that. it is alot of work for little pay. the problem is they dont want to pay for what their worth. i was selling 50 cal and .700 cal had a couple customers but they wern't buying enough.

[MUSTANG]

Great information. I was planning to draw my own jackets from strip copper, which is $798/50lbs on Corbin's site. Where I struggled is calculating how many jackets I could make out of 50lbs. Corbin gives a calculation (x=jacket grain weight/.8; then x/350,000), but unfortunately, I don't have the data to complete it. He says usually "several thousand." Assuming I could make copper jackets for the same $0.09/$0.10 per jacket that you can, and assuming a jacket weight of about 15 grains, and lead core weight of 47 grains (thus creating a 62 grain .223 bullet), that should yield a cost of $.03 per lead core, and a rough total bullet cost of $.12/$.13, right?

Yes - not including cost of dies, lube, cleaning, polishing for swaging operations and packaging for the product (Surprising how much those little plastic boxes or even heavy gauge plastic zip bags cost. Obviously business insurance and shipping or store front must be considered, as well as your transportation costs to/from shipping location, and .... you get the picture on a business cost.

[Winger Ed.]

buying 1300 jackets for .30 caliber bullets costs $290.00 before shipping costs. That translates to 22.3 cents per round just in jackets; .

As frugal as most people are who shoot much, there isn't much more than a school bus full of folks in the country that will
pay what such bullets are worth, and what you'd have to charge to make them profitable.

Back in the 80's I figured to do some custom reloading, and got a Class VI license for it.
I'd tune up something like a .30-06 load for someone with their brass from it, and load Nosler partitions, Sierra Pro-Hunter, Match King, etc..

More often than not:
If they found any junk/on sale ammo at Wal-Mart in that cal. for 10 cents less a box---- I'd ripped 'em off.

I finally went to:
"I'm not competing with Wal-Mart, or trying to under cut something you found at a garage sale.
From me-- In your brass, in lots of 100,,, $3.00 each, and Nosler partitions go for $3.50 each".

People would ask, "Can I shoot one hole groups with this stuff"?
I'd tell them I personally know three guys that can, but I really don't think you're going to make it four".

After that, I had two regular customers, no grief or yackety-yak, and even made a couple bucks.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Look into Hawk bullets. If I were to go into the bullet making Biz, that's a direction I'd consider.
They do something that no one else does, and they get quite a bit $ for their Hunting bullets. Soft copper jackets (annealed I believe?) that can be ordered in different thicknesses to customize for different caliber's Pressure and desired expansion, and soft Lead core. It sure would be easy on the tooling using such soft materials.

[JRLesan]

Suggest go to RCE's sight, buy his manual press and a set of 'in stock' dies, then buy a roll of lead wire or core mold and a bag of 250 jackets from a place like Center-X. You will now have spent about $1500.00 or so. Then make a couple hundred bullets and realize that even with a hydro press production won't be a lot faster; just the absence of arm fatigue. Changing and adjusting dies for each step can produce a few culls and of course there really is a steep learning curve before you produce real quality bullets. Anyone can use old cartridge brass for jackets which will produce mediocre (at best) bullets but remember: anyone can also buy a one step die and do their own. Additionally consider the cast bullet suppliers out there who produce a product that competes will with jacketed plinking bullets at a lesser price. Just thing to consider...

[ebb]

Call Bart Sauter of Barts bullets. His bullets have won many bench rest world and national championships. If anyone can tell you the ins and outs of the bullet business he can.

[MrWolf]

You are also not figuring in your professional costs, i.e. lawyers, C.P.A, etc.. Might want to speak to a CPA that specializes in that area. Even ask the big boys who they use. Good luck.

[Bent Ramrod]

I can only relate to my own experience here. I bought the Corbin .22RF-to-.224 jacketed bullet die set back in the ‘70s, when the kit, including core mould, cost $78. Hornet bullets from the manufacturers could be gotten for $2.50 per hundred at the time.

Since I was already set up for casting, and could scrounge “free” lead and .22 RF shells, I figured I could make back my investment by making 3120 bullets. Easy-peasy .

I don’t know if I have done half that many yet. I once made about 300 bullets at one sitting. The production rate, with the Corbin dies, mould and annealed .22 cases, was maybe 1/4-1/3 that of a single cavity boolit mould, with sizing and lubing. And this was without the dark arts aspects of the competent bullet swager: trimming the jackets, letting the jacket/core assembly “rest” after pressing, checking and culling weights, polishing the finished bullets afterwards, etc. It took me at least a week, and after that I wasn’t in the mood for any more swaging for quite some time.

The product was good for exploding water-filled cans at offhand distances, maybe 1-1/2” at 100 yd accuracy in my .22 Hornet.

I did a much smaller batch some time later with the same die set using J-4 jackets I’d found at a gun show, and weighing cores, but again, none of the “resting” and other arcana the pros do. Loaded them up with my standard powder, primers and shells in my Borchardt varmint rifle and took them to our local benchrest match. With 52-gr Remington match bullets, I could usually get close to Phil, our perpetual winner with his 40x in .222. That time I did so badly, he came down the line and asked if I was ill or something. I did notice that my punch, which fit the drawn .22RF jackets, was a little small in the J-4s, allowing a flash of lead to creep up the sides of the core/jacket assembly. When swaged to a point, this might have thrown the bullets off balance. I probably needed to make another punch for a better fit, and, by inference, anybody drawing jackets should best match his punches to the thickness of the jackets he is making.

Since all these die makers have long lead times, this need for custom parts on the fly could interfere with production pretty badly.

I don’t know how I’d do 1000 finished bullets a day, with a three-die swage set, even if all the components were there and ready. Maybe it’s the expense, (which is not trivial) but some people seem to think they’re buying a bullet factory in that die set, which is definitely not the case. There’s also, for me, a kind of psychological component to the operation. Casting is kind of a comfortable, repetitive Zen thing for me, where, after things get up to temperature and I’m rushing on my run, I only have to worry about dropping the occasional bad casting back into the pot. Swaging is a lot more tense; I seem to be walking on a razor edge between lube dents and a bullet stuck in the die, constantly checking punches for alignment, and worrying about those expensive polished cavities. It definitely isn’t just pushing a button or pulling a lever, for me, anyway. YMMV, of course.

It’s a fascinating process, and well worth The Experience, but it’s like playing guitar and singing. Fun hobby; better ways to make a living.

[Guardian]

Also consider that a good portion of your prospective market are folks who:
A) will lose interest in reloading as soon as ammo returns to shelves, or
B) will be restricted by primer availability.

[Zbench]

Component mfg. Does not require a 7 FFL. Only loaded ammunition mfg.

This isn't true. I owned a shooting range and we were an ammunition manufacturer as well as swaging some bullets for sale. You need an ATF Class 6 if you make with the intent to sell bullets, primers, brass cases, powder or completed ammunition. You only pay excise tax on completed ammunition though.

I'd encourage anyone thinking about applying for an FFL to call your local ATF field office and ask as many questions as you need to before you apply. Once you have your FFL, consult them often whenever you have a question. They are there to help and are not the enemy. We were inspected 3 times and passed with flying colors each time. Their requests are not that difficult to comply with but it is imperative you know the requirements, not just base your processes and procedures on what you heard or thought to be true.

[Sleeping Dog]

Well there’s the need for a 06/07 FFL, ITAR registration, insurance, and the current 11% excise tax on ammunition. Since the components of ammunition are also considered ammunition.

You need a class 6 FFL, which has a $30 fee for three years.

If you are making normal ammunition, then you do not need to register with ITAR (which is normally $2500/year). Within the last year, they updated the Munitions List, which defines what items are considered military grade and need to be tracked. Previously, a whole bunch of stuff was on the list, to include gun smithing (yes, fixing a gun required $2500/year). Former President Trump changed the rules to be much more reasonable. Now, the munitions list does not include typical small arms. If you are doing caseless ammo, ammo with belts, automatic rifles, calibers larger than 50, etc., then you need to register. I called up DDTC to confirm this and we went through the Munitions list, which is provided for your own benefit: https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...s-i-ii-and-iii

Ammunition includes not only complete cartridges, but bullets, primers, cases and powder according to the exact definition. Thus, you need an FFL to sell bullets you make.

[deltaenterprizes]

Well there’s the need for a 06/07 FFL, ITAR registration, insurance, and the current 11% excise tax on ammunition. Since the components of ammunition are also considered ammunition.

I was an 06 FFL for 12 NO FET ON COMPONENTS!

[Zbench]

If you are going to get an FFL, you might consider getting a Class 7. Allows you to make ammunition and ammunition components like a Class 6, but also allows you to transfer firearms. You can make a nice side business serving as an FFL transfer location for folks that buy on gunbroker. Most places charge $25-40 per transfer. You'd probably want a business location though so strangers aren't constantly coming to your home.

[454PB]

I agree with Bent Ramrod. I have the Corbin set for making .224 bullets, including the derimmer for forming jackets from fired .22 cases. I enjoy the process, but I can't imagine producing 1000 bullets per day. The best I've done is 300 in a day, and when they were done, I was done swaging for a while.

I have no desire to make a business of any part of handloading, and I also believe the best way to ruin a hobby is to turn it into a business.

[Zbench]

If you read the materials on Corbin's website, you will see that he espouses this philosophy as well. His point is you won't be able compete with the likes or hornady or speer making common bullets, but if you find a niche that these makers don't serve, and there is a demand, you will be as busy as you want to be and charge even $2/bullet in the process. That's a very sophisticated opinion if you ask me and has a ton of merit.

However, in the world where even 9mm bullets are bringing the moon and stars, an argument could be made to venture into "common" bullets. Seems like 9mm is what everyone wants and no one has at present.

I agree with Bent Ramrod. I have the Corbin set for making .224 bullets, including the derimmer for forming jackets from fired .22 cases. I enjoy the process, but I can't imagine producing 1000 bullets per day. The best I've done is 300 in a day, and when they were done, I was done swaging for a while.

I have no desire to make a business of any part of handloading, and I also believe the best way to ruin a hobby is to turn it into a business.

[Alex ZP]

Very interesting topic. Thanks to its author for raising this issue. I'm currently just expecting equipment from Dave. Therefore I am also interested in figures of prime cost of materials. Calculations of speed of production. If I understood correctly. In America only to make a jacket for a bullet in 223 Rem will cost 0.09 dollars?

[KAYDADOG]

I agree with everyone it will be very difficult to make a business swaging bullets. Starting with jackets, you can not buy the copper material at a decent price. Even if you bought the 50/lb roll from Corbin and figure out the cost you might as well bought them outright. Then if you need the equipment it would cost another $15K plus to get setup with his hydraulic setup. Then to swage the bullets your looking at two to three operations each and even using an automated hydraulic press which I made it takes a lot of time. I couldn't see doing this for a business.

I've also tried making gas checks using a small 3/ton punch press which did work out. Bought the aluminum strip from Yonky and also automated the press. Found a local die maker and had a set of dies made for 44/cal checks. This would be a two step operation. A blanking operation capable of more than 1000 blanks per hour. The cupping operation was more difficult only due to developing a reliable loader. The checks did come out very consistent. Just another project I wanted to try out. If I could master the loader for the cupping operation you could probably make money here because of the hourly rate. This is why punch presses are used in industry to make jackets or finished bullets, there fast.

Another good point was brought up regarding component availability and cost. Great Lakes in Ohio just advertised 1000 CCI small pistol primers for $249.99. I thought it was a mistake but at this price it will not allow a lot of individuals to load ammunition for a hobby. For me I still need at least primers and powder to load most calibers. Luckily I stocked up after the last time this happened.

Bottom line, there's a lot to think about if your considering making anything for a business.

[Alex ZP]

I have questions for visitors to this forum. Are there manufacturers of stamps and presses in America focused on the production of medium volume? Similar to the Corbin brothers. To not only meet their needs. But also to make bullets for sale.
I ask this question because I have been waiting for the equipment for about six months. I still don't see the deadline when it will be done. And I still have quite a few plans with other calibers. And I would like to get in the future what interests me more quickly.

[Jim22]

As a small business owner I will tell you that you will work harder than you have ever worked before - and much longer hours. There will be a period of time before you ever realize a profit. That can be years. You will need to learn skills other than bullet making. Marketing, bookkeeping, inventory control, buying, financing, and management in general - especially if you find yourself needing employees. And you will need them because your time will not be devoted entirely to making bullets or jackets. You will have to deal with local, state, federal permits each year as well as inspectors who show up wanting to see your setup. You will be dealing with hazardous substances like lead and lubricants and cleaning agents.

[Sleeping Dog]

I asked three companies about insurance for manufacturing ammo. Two didn't respond and the other one said that they can't find any companies that will take on ammo risk.