Lil'Gun in 357 magnum: Accuracy? What accuracy?

[Daekar]

I recently purchased some Lil'Gun for use in my 357 mag T/C Encore pistol, and have been trying to work up an accurate load. I experimented with higher-power loads but abandon that effort. At this point I would settle for accuracy at the minimum load of 16.0gr, I don't need any more power than that.

Using the 158gr HT-coated SWCs from Missouri Bullets, I have continually failed to achieve acceptable accuracy across the entire range of Hogdgon-recommended charges, from min to max. Like 4" at 13 yards from a sitting position bad. The same gun with a 125gr TCBB over 5.0gr Trail Boss is far more accurate. Tried the Lil'Gun loads in my Henry Single Shot, and they were only a tiny smidgen better, still terrible.

I have tried changing my crimp to be heavier, as recommended by some threads online. Still bad. I am at a loss what to do. The internet seems divided into two camps, those that love and hate Lil'Gun in 357. What can I do to go from the latter to the former?

EDIT NOTE: I took the step of measuring both the 158gr and 125gr bullets with micrometers this morning, and both them them mic about the same; in my samples I found a range from 0.3581 to 0.3585 with a Mitutoyo 0-1" mic that is rated for +/-.0001. I'm not sure, but that range of sizes seems pretty reasonable to me. I will load some test rounds trying the 158s with the Trail Boss and report back on the results.

EDIT: Haven't gotten to test 158s with Trail Boss yet, but the 230gr WCs with Lil'Gun seem to be acceptable with my limited testing. The load recommended by Badman surprised me - 10.1gr was supposed to produce 1100fps according to QuickLOAD but actually came out a bit north of 1200fps in my 12" Encore. That's considerably more muzzle energy than I was expecting, but as long as accuracy holds up I am happy with it.

[Mk42gunner]

Does your boolit have a gas check? 2000 fps is a lot of velocity for a plain based boolit, even if it is powder coated.

Robert

[Daekar]

So no, but the loads I am trying now are way below that. I would settle for good accuracy at the starting load, I don't really need the power. But I am getting poor accuracy across the entire charge range recommended by Hodgdon, including the starting load of 16.0gr. Their data for the starting load is around 1500fps in a 10 inch barrel, and I think my 12 inch barrel is unlikely to boost velocity that much. Does that sound reasonable?

[bluejay75]

Go heavier and you can shoot a moderately hard boolit at the Max for jacketed at that weight. Warning. This was the only powder (lil gun)that gave me extraction issues at 12.5 grains and a 180. I can get to 15-15.5 with 296 for good accuracy. When I say good. 1.5 inches or less at 100 yards. I asked the range safety to verify a .37 inch 5 shot group with 15 grains of H110 and the 180 Larsen. Casts near 190 with my alloy. Shot from a Handi Rifle and a 4x scope.

Plain base bullets, seated just past the crimp groove, powder coated in clear, thrown charges, not weight sorted or anything special with the boolits.

As Mal Paso would say!!!FIT IS KING!!!

[Stephen Cohen]

I have never used Powder coat but do get better than 2,000fps from my 357 max rifle with lee r/f plain base cast, I do however us Hi-Tek coating and size to .360, my groups are never bigger than 1 1/4'' at 100 metres. Regards Stephen.

[DHDeal]

I never had great accuracy when I tried Lil'gun. I didn't spend too much time on it though as that was around the time it was getting a reputation of a forcing cone eater. H110 has been a fantastic stout load powder for all of the revolvers I own that would use it.

I know that doesn't help with your Lil'gun issue. Wish I had more of an answer than "it didn't work for me for my application".

[Mk42gunner]

I don't really know about your accuracy issues, unless the boolit doesn't fit, as has been noted, fit is king.

I will say that I don't remember having any problems with LILGUN in my limited testing in a Winchester model 94AE in .357 Magnum. It was also one of the standouts for accuracy in the .32 H&R Mag Ruger SSM.

Good luck,

Robert

[Larry Gibson]

No GC on a GC designed bullet and 1500+ velocity......

If you don't want to use a GC you might want to drop back to 1200 fps or, preferably, less velocity with a "standard" powder such as Unique. The use of a GC on a GC designed bullet would probably prove quite useful in the 1500 - 2000 fps range you are trying. I know "coat" covered bullets (assuming you mean PC or HT?) is supposed to be the panacea to end all panaceas but perhaps you're finding out it just ain't always so...... Having tried that with 10 shot groups I found out I got very good one shot groups, great groups in fact, but the 10 shot group really sucked........

[NSB]

Your powder isn’t the problem, it’s your bullets. Lil’gun isn’t one of my favorite powders in the .357 because of the heat it generates but it shoots pretty well with the right bullets. You’re pushing your bullets way beyond what they’re capable of. As mentioned you need a gas check at those velocities. There’s other factors also. When you’re getting four inch groups at 13 yards, that’s worse than any group I’ve ever gotten with any bullet. Your bullets may be out of spec dimensionally and not even be a close fit for the gun. I’d quit using those bullets and start over with something else. You’re probably going to find that no matter what bullet and powder you choose you’re going to get your best accuracy at 1200fps or less out of your TC.

[Daekar]

I am willing to entertain the possibility that this theory is correct, but let me present a bit more information.

I am no longer attempting to push 2000fps. As soon as I realized those loads had terrible accuracy I dropped down and started again from the minimum charge and looked for accuracy at any velocity. That's when I started to be confused - I halfway expected poor accuracy up at 2000fps, but not down at the starting load.

I measured both bullets this morning. Both the 125gr TCBBs and the 158gr SWCs measured between 0.3581 and 0.3585 across my samples. As I've said before, the 125gr shoots great out of the T/C and the Henry when loaded over Trail Boss. Does this imply that the diameter isn't the problem? I intend to load some 158s over Trail Boss this afternoon if I get out of work early enough and see how they group.

Your powder isn’t the problem, it’s your bullets. Lil’gun isn’t one of my favorite powders in the .357 because of the heat it generates but it shoots pretty well with the right bullets. You’re pushing your bullets way beyond what they’re capable of. As mentioned you need a gas check at those velocities. There’s other factors also. When you’re getting four inch groups at 13 yards, that’s worse than any group I’ve ever gotten with any bullet. Your bullets may be out of spec dimensionally and not even be a close fit for the gun. I’d quit using those bullets and start over with something else. You’re probably going to find that no matter what bullet and powder you choose you’re going to get your best accuracy at 1200fps or less out of your TC.

[Daekar]

I am now searching for accuracy at any velocity - I don't really need the power. If I get good performance at the minimum load, that's just fine with me. I kind of expected poor performance at 2000fps, but that was achieved with shallow-seated bullets and charges that exceed book max (no pressure issue and stable dynamic V/C, FWIW)... I never expected to encounter problems down at the book minimum charge and in the middle.

Does this imply that even the minimum charge of Lil'Gun is too hot for these bullets? They are from Missouri Bullets, HT coated and 18 Brinell.

No GC on a GC designed bullet and 1500+ velocity......

If you don't want to use a GC you might want to drop back to 1200 fps or, preferably, less velocity with a "standard" powder such as Unique. The use of a GC on a GC designed bullet would probably prove quite useful in the 1500 - 2000 fps range you are trying. I know "coat" covered bullets (assuming you mean PC or HT?) is supposed to be the panacea to end all panaceas but perhaps you're finding out it just ain't always so...... Having tried that with 10 shot groups I found out I got very good one shot groups, great groups in fact, but the 10 shot group really sucked........

[GasGuzzler]

From experience 16 of Lil'Gun isn't a light load regardless of if it's a start load or not. If it's a GC bullet, put a GC on it at that pressure. What's the twist of a TC?

[onelight]

Have you checked your bore ? Some of those loads mentioned have a lot of potential to leave a lot of lead in the bore .

[Daekar]

From experience 16 of Lil'Gun isn't a light load regardless of if it's a start load or not. If it's a GC bullet, put a GC on it at that pressure. What's the twist of a TC?

That is something I hadn't considered. Hmmm...

I'm not confident that it is a GC bullet, I didn't see anything in the marketing that implied that was the case. Here is a link to the product page, is there anything you see that indicates a gas check would be necessary in normal load ranges?

The barrel I'm using is by Match Grade Machine, 12" long, chambered in 357 mag (NOT max). The twist rate is 1:16, which didn't seem outside the normal to me when I bought it.

Thoughts?

[Daekar]

Have you checked your bore ? Some of those loads mentioned have a lot of potential to leave a lot of lead in the bore .

I actually did a very thorough cleaning of the bore after I stopped messing with the max-power loads. The HT coating is supposed to prevent leading above the velocities I was pushing, and although the bore was pretty dirty I got it clean. I have to admit though, as a relative newcomer to cast bullets I am not 100% confident in my ability to distinguish between leading and normal powder fouling, so it's possible that there was some at first. I'm fairly certain that there wasn't any leading when I starting my accuracy tests at the bottom of the charge range.

[GasGuzzler]

It's not a GC bullet from the picture in the link. "Normal load ranges" for a full power .357 Magnum will often benefit from a gas check. Like others above I think you could be better served with a different bullet or less pressure therefore less velocity. MBC says the bullet is approved for magnum velocities but they may mean 1400 out of a 6" revolver. Doubling the barrel length when using a lot of slow magnum powder likely pushes that bullet beyond their "magnum velocity" rating. With 1:16" over 12" I'd try a 170-ish at near the same pressure as the 16.0 Lil'Gun load but with a gas check. My 358158 gas check Lee 2-holer drops at 162-ish before the powder coating and gas check.

[onelight]

I shoot a lot of commercial cast HT coated bullets and have found that they can leave lead and lots of it under certain conditions . It there is much leading you can feel the drag from it on a tight patch on a jag when cleaning .
When it is light when looking down the bore look at the bottom corners of the grooves for the matt silver color of lead. Another sign is , if you have cleaned normally and still get light traces of grey on your patch use a bronze brush a few strokes and then another patch with cleaning solution if it comes out black you still are getting lead from the bore.
If you have a Lewis lead remover it is the simplest way to get it all out and next choice for me is chore-boy copper cleaning pads wrapped on a bore brush.
HT or powder coated are more forgiving than traditional lubed bullets but not a cure all , and for me not a replacement for gas checks on hot loads.
There are a lot of folks here more qualified than I am in the hot load department most of what I use HT on are in the 800 to 1100 FPS range and my GC cast I use for the few hotter loads I shoot at this point in my life.
I have no doubt that you can find reasonable accurate loads for the bullet showed in the link but it will probably be at low to medium velocity.

[Daekar]

I shoot a lot of commercial cast HT coated bullets and have found that they can leave lead and lots of it under certain conditions . It there is much leading you can feel the drag from it on a tight patch on a jag when cleaning .
When it is light when looking down the bore look at the bottom corners of the grooves for the matt silver color of lead. Another sign is , if you have cleaned normally and still get light traces of grey on your patch use a bronze brush a few strokes and then another patch with cleaning solution if it comes out black you still are getting lead from the bore.
If you have a Lewis lead remover it is the simplest way to get it all out and next choice for me is chore-boy copper cleaning pads wrapped on a bore brush.
HT or powder coated are more forgiving than traditional lubed bullets but not a cure all , and for me not a replacement for gas checks on hot loads.
There are a lot of folks here more qualified than I am in the hot load department most of what I use HT on are in the 800 to 1100 FPS range and my GC cast I use for the few hotter loads I shoot at this point in my life.
I have no doubt that you can find reasonable accurate loads for the bullet showed in the link but it will probably be at low to medium velocity.

Thank you for sharing your experience, I will keep that in mind about lead-cleaning techniques.

I am starting to think that the marketing around HT coated bullets is not 100% honest. If the test loads with Trail Boss under the 158s comes out OK, I think I will save the Lil'Gun for either copper jacketed bullets or for when I can get my hands on some heavier cast options which will slow down the velocities. I never really considered casting my own, but I've been having a heck of a time finding anyone online that even has an out-of-stock page for coated heavy 357 bullets. Might be easier to just bite the bullet (ha!) and get started now. I've got a bit of pocket money from selling guns I never shot so I can afford it. Just have to figure out where to put all the stuff, my bench area is getting a bit crowded...

[onelight]

I have shot a lot of commercial cast and the HT are a big improvement over lubed commercial cast but like some of the other guys have pointed out all of the other variables still a apply , GC , size , alloy , bullet style , bullet fit to your barrel and chamber , velocity even powder selection can impact how clean they shoot and the faster you shoot the more critical this all gets .
It's a whole new dimension of reloading that can be entertaining and interesting to whatever level you chose.

[Larry Gibson]

That is not a GC bullet.

Lil'Gun is not a powder to use for low velocity/low pressure loads. Indeed save it for use with top end loads using jacketed bullets.

The trailboss load shoots well because the velocity is relatively low and the powder is burning efficiently.

I suggest reading the Lyman #3 Cast bullet handbook, particularly the chapters in the front regarding loading cast bullets. It is available as a download now.