Trying out Black Powder for the first time -.45 Colt

[Calpoly93]

Hello All, I tried out black powder reloading/shooting in my Ruger New Model Vaquero (45 Colt). The day I shot was a little windy, so I didn't get the benefit of the smoke, unfortunately.
But the real issue was the cylinder binding... I couldn't shoot 6 without manually turning the cylinder with my hands. That's no fun...What can I do to correct that? Gun had Ballistol on it, bulets were lubed with homemade lube of beeswax and Crisco
Thanks!
Steve

[Brakeman97]

I reload and shoot BP loaded long colts all the time in my Vaq, no problem. Sooty a bit, sure, but never an issue. What are you oiling the cylinder with? Are you using home made powder? Rifle BP? I never use anything like the beeswax. If any were to capture some unburnt powder and make it between the cylinder and the barrel then it would certainly cause a gritty issue that could block rotation. I'd make sure powder and bullet lube can't mix.

[Calpoly93]

Light coating of Ballistol on the gun. I'm using Goex powder FFF as I recall...

[Brakeman97]

Oh didn't expect such a quick reply.. I edited.
Like I said before look for gritty residue of unburnt powder. That's my suspect.

[Castaway]

Your bullet may not be carrying enough lube. When I first started firing a cap and ball, I used a concoction of Crisco, beeswax with Murphy’s oil. After two cylinders, like you, I had to manually rotate the cylinder. Switched to Gato Feo’s #1 lube and I can fire all day with my cap and ball using an under ball wad. For 45 Colt loads, I start binding up after 25 rounds if I use a Lee 255 RNFP and have to remove the cylinder and wipe or spray down with water or Ballistol/water mix. Would love to find a 6 cavity, 255 grain, Pigeon Roost Slim mould to get deep enough lube grooves to fix the problem once and for all.

[Calpoly93]

I will check that... sounds very likely!
As I recall, there was a lot of lube, and some on the bottom of the bullets...

[country gent]

Several tricks to help. SPG or emmerts improved lube. a .015 pr .020 over powder wad and a thin grease cookie if problem persists. .030 thick grease cookie. With BP the lube not only is for the bullet but to keep fouling soft. The grooves are a little on the small side on the 255 lee. Bt have worked for me with these lubes. Werther also plays a part here as hot dry conditions dry the fouling faster.

Here is my formula for emmerts improved.

50% beeswax
40% unsalted crisco vegetable shortening
5% olive oil or canola oil
5% anhydrous Lanolin
a very small drop of murphies oil soap, this helps to blend everything together.

as a "teaser" on the range add a teaspoon of bacon grease, then watch everyone run to get food as you shoot. LOL

Wads cut from card board cereal boxes or even wax paper are fine here.

Experiment with the powders compression also fouling drops and accuracy improves a lot with the right compression

[ShooterAZ]

I used to shoot a lot of black powder blanks in my 44 Blackhawk for re-enactments. I would use STP lube on the base pin, because it seemed like everything else would cause it to bind up. If you have some, you might try it.

[mack1]

I use Mobile One Synthetic wheel bearing grease for my base pin. I would try Old Eynsford or Swiss powder and work the load up to a cleaner burn, I seem to have the best luck with Old E 2f in my 44 wcf but 3f may seal better in your 45.

[greenjoytj]

Calpoly93:
Do as Country gent recommended and try SPG or the Emmerts Improved lube.
I think your beeswax/Crisco is lacking in ability to liquify and wet the fouling.
Also the standard GOEX makes a lot more fouling than Old Eynsford, you’ll get about 100 fps more MV with Old Eynsford and less fouling.
I have used both powders if I couldn’t get Old Eynsford I’d save my money and wait till it came in stock or order it specially for me.

In my Ruger New Vaquero’s I use 35 grs of 2fg Old Eynsford and a Lyman 452664 & the LEE 452-255-RF no wads and CCI 350 mag primers. I think the mag primers helps reduce fouling build up and does lower the extreme spread in MV.

I prefer the Lyman cast bullet it’s drops 250 to 255 grs. The LEE drops 260 to 265 grs.
I like the beveled base on the Lyman bullet, it does make it easier to load and wiping the lube off the beveled base is not that much of of an issue.

I was using Starline brass but that brass is too tough, I would get a lot fo blow back fouling that made it hard to eject the brass after a few cylinders have been fired.
I did anneal the Starline brass but it is easier just to use thinner brass like Winchester.
I save the annealed Starline cases for use in my M73 now.

I opened up my chamber throats to .452” with a Mason reamer because a Hornady 250 gr XTP could not be inserted nose first into the chamber throats not even close to the parallel sides of the bullet.
I do use grease on my cylinder base pins but I have never seen any fouling on the base pin.
It is the cylinder bushing that touches the frame that gets coated with fouling, I put a drop Jojoba oil on that spot if it looks dry or the cylinder stars to bind.
Jojoba oil is a high temperature plant seed oil that I use in making my homemade Emmerts Improved lube.

One issue I had was my cartridges were too long by a few thou they would chamber but the rims were stand up off the cylinder just a few thou and I didn’t notice that until I had a issue on firing them. Upon firing they set back tight against the recoil shield forcing me to manually turn the cylinder by hand. I believe the problem was caused by two things 1) slightly long ctg’s and 2) over annealed cases that lost their elastic springyness to return to their near unfired state.

Shooting BP is so much fun.

[bedbugbilly]

I use a mixture of Crisco/beeswax for my BP lube. On my C & B revolvers, I always lube the cylinder pin well with my BP lube before shooting and I can get many cylinders full without a cylinder bind issue.

I don't have a NV in 45 Colt but I did have a NV in 357. I did the same treatment to the cylinder pin before starting to shoot and never had an issue. I do the same on my Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt as well as my Uberti '51 Navy R & M conversion and my C & B revolvers with conversion cylinders. On my 45 Colt I normally use the Ideal 454-190 and it seems to have an adequate lube groove that I just finger lube before seating/compressing the load.

A lot of folks have their favorite lube that works for them as far as cylinder pin lubrication. It's a case of trial and error but try what you have on hand first - your BP lube to lube the cylinder pin and if it doesn't do the job, try some of the other lubes to see how they work. I'll also add that I use Goes BP for my loads as well. On my New Vaquero in 357, I also lubed the cylinder pin bushing. I ended up selling my New Vaquero as I was shooting my Ubertis most of the time. The New Vaquero is a good single action. I ended up getting a 357 Uberti Bisley 4 3/4" to try and I really like it. But, with BP loads, keeping the cylinder pin lubed well is a must on mine for BP loads.

[quail4jake]

My best success has been with the NOE 455-255 wadcutter cast 40:1 sized .452 for the New Vaquero lubed with SPG (my own SPG like mix bot firmer than SPG, Beeswax 80% Jojoba oil 10% and lanolin 10%), Swiss FFg 25 gr compressing by seating the boolit to full depth. I would improve with a fiber wad, grease cookie, drop tube, separate compression die and a slightly reduced powder charge. With this load, as it is, I have had no problem with binding. I do lube the base pin with snake oil while occasionally shooting but not every cylinder.

[flint45]

I love shooting real black powder in my 45 colts in my Ruger vaquero it works great very good accuracy. If cylinders start to bind I squirt some liquid bore cleaner in and do that at about every 3 cylinders full.

[Dave T]

Monday of this week I fired 95 rounds through two of my USFA single actions, one a 4-3/4" and the other a 3" Sheriff's model. About 60 through the #1 gun and 35 rounds through the short one.

My load is a Big Lube 250g RNFP over 32g of OE FFFg. Cool day in the desert (~60 degrees) and humidity between 12% and 15%. Bullets were purchased from Mark Whyte and he lubes with SPG.

Although the guns got very dirty there was no cylinder drag or binding. And because the bullets are sized to the chamber throats there was minimal leading. It wipped out with a couple passes of a brass brush.

Properly sized and lubed bullets are key to shooting black powder in any cartridge revolver. And with BP a softer lead alloy is usually better (20-1 is what I was shooting). If sized to the chamber mouths they won't lead and they will shoot quite well.

Dave

[cowboy4evr]

" If sized to the chamber mouths they won't lead and they will shoot quite well " . So that means that a Colt New Service that I recently looked at in 44-40 would shoot just fine , accurate and not much leading ? The cylinder mouths were .427 and the groove diameter of the barrel was .434 . These figures came from the gunsmith himself . I passed on it . Regards Paul

[Tar Heel]

1. Shoot a "black powder" bullet with a LARGE lube groove. Examples of these can be seen on the Accurate Mold web page. Here is an example: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=45-260F-D.png
2. Use SPG bullet lube. Period.
3. Compress the black powder with a compression die. It burns more efficiently and cleaner. It should be at the base of the bullet after compression. My 45 Colt loads like a lot of compression. Spooky compression.
4. Size to or .001"> than cylinder throat.

https://youtu.be/oIxnqV2Wakw

[Dave T]

" If sized to the chamber mouths they won't lead and they will shoot quite well " . So that means that a Colt New Service that I recently looked at in 44-40 would shoot just fine , accurate and not much leading ? The cylinder mouths were .427 and the groove diameter of the barrel was .434 . These figures came from the gunsmith himself . I passed on it . Regards Paul

My comment was general in nature and was not intended as a hard and fast rule, carved in stone, and applicable in the case of each and every revolver. Good grief!

Dave

[mack1]

My comment was general in nature and was not intended as a hard and fast rule, carved in stone, and applicable in the case of each and every revolver. Good grief!

Dave

My Colt Frontier Six Shooter has cylinder mouths of.427 and a groove of .430 and shoots quite well for a revolver thats 127 years old. Around 2" at 25 yards from a rest. It does take a full case of black with compression to swell the boolit enough to get there. What is the bore diameter, I think this comes into play?

[Dave T]

I have a late production USFA (all US parts) Pre-War 45 Colt with the black powder frame. The chamber mouths slug at .452" and the barrel slugs at .451". I load 20-1 .452" projectiles weighing 250g. They're seated over either 32g of OE FFFg or 35g of OE FFFg. I get virtually no leading, or nothing a single pass with a brass brush won't clean.

YMMV,
Dave

[greenjoytj]

Dave T Could you confirm your powder granulation size is the same 3fg for both loads?

I was wondering if you meant to show two different charge weights for two different granulations.