Heeled 38 LC Capacity

[ButchC]

I may be a whee bit ahead of myself here. I recently ordered up a new barrel for a project Pietta 1858 so while I assume the .36 is going to require some fat boolits for a conversion, I haven't been able to slug it. Maybe I'll get lucky.

Anyhow, my plan should it be .380 is to use some heeled bullets in LC length cases over a charge of 3F, no balloon heads here. In looking at some of Accurate's molds and reading through the CAS forums a couple points jumped out at me. Longer heels are said to have negative effects on accuracy and some of the gas check mold drawings show a .354-.355 diameter.

Would I be out of my mind to bump up the diameter to .357 (or even skip that) crimp into the lube groove and use a gas check model as a mini-heel? I'd think it would give me a little extra case capacity (maybe inconsequential?) and maybe improve flight. Or would the bearing surface in the case be too short for any cartridge durability?

[Oyeboten]

Your Cylinders have no 'step' to demark Chamber from Bore?

Hard to imagine reproduction Revolvers that would require heeled Bullets, but, who knows?

"Gas Check" Bullets for .38 Long Colt?

Feeling a little lost here...Lol...

[Outpost75]

Your Cylinders have no 'step' to demark Chamber from Bore?

Hard to imagine reproduction Revolvers that would require heeled Bullets, but, who knows?

"Gas Check" Bullets for .38 Long Colt?

Feeling a little lost here...Lol...

The Howell .38 cartridge conversion cylinders for cap & ball revolvers are chambered a .380" cylinder straight through. My Pietta Remington New Model Navy barrel is .375 groove diameter. It shoots OK with factory .38 Special HBWCs or .38 Long Colts having a hollow-based bullet which will upset, but Old West and Accurate both make molds to cast heeled bullets for use with .38 Long Colt brass.

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[Oyeboten]

The Howell .38 cartridge conversion cylinders for cap & ball revolvers are chambered a .380" cylinder straight through. My Pietta Remington New Model Navy barrel is .375 groove diameter. It shoots OK with factory .38 Special HBWCs or .38 Long Colts having a hollow-based bullet which will upset, but Old West and Accurate both make molds to cast heeled bullets for use with .38 Long Colt brass.

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Huh!

I did not know this...

I have only had .44 Cap & Ball Revolvers, and have never had any conversions.

Surprised me!

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Butch,

As I have not attempted 38 Long Colt as of yet, I did do the 44 Colt.
I have a PDF over on the 1858 Forum, https://1858remington.com/index.php?topic=8675.0
I used the LEE 450-200-1R mold & formed a heel about 0.125" long.
I do plan on doing about the same when I get to the 38 Colt with the LEE 375-130-1R.
All I can say is it shoots very well in my 5-1/2" 1858 Remington.
I also have the Howell Cylinder, but it does appear to have a tapered chamber with no throat.

AntiqueSledMan.

[ButchC]

That's excellent info AntiqueSledMan, thanks! Your write up was very well done and I wish I had easier access to some tools or I might try and make a swaging block and turn back a crimp die. That 0.125 works for you as a heel and that gives me a starting point to look at molds. Thanks again!

[kootne]

Butch, I have no experience with the caliber you are using but quite a lot with 32RF in single shot rifles. The .32RF's also require a hollow base or heel bullet. I have used a number of different original and modern molds. Following a concept presented in the book, "The Art of Bullet Casting" in a chapter on loading heel bullets (which was a reprint of a mid 1960's article from "Handloader" or "Rifle" magazine I played with Lyman's 311419, a gas checked bullet of about 90 grains. The "heel" is about 1/2 the length of conventional bullets for .32 C.F. S,L, or XL (which are dimensional same as the RF counterparts). It does shoot with similar accuracy to original style bullets. The shank is smaller in diameter than on correct bullets so I made some lathe turned cases with thicker case mouths. I have not tried the alternate method to compensate the smaller dia. and crimp as described in the "Art of Casting" article. The thicker mouths and short shank do make ammo that works fine in a single shot rifle but they are not crimpable and thus must be handled with care to keep bullet in case. This is different than your situation so I can't address that part of your question. If you are getting a custom mold made, just get the shank at a diameter that will slip fit into your fired brass. You can get a crimping die from "Old West Moulds" that will put a crimp in the proper place on heeled bullets. For your revolver loads, I would consider that a "must have".
Good luck, I think you can make it work.
Dennis

[bedbugbilly]

Outpost75 was a HUGE help to me when I went down this path. I'm using a Taylor's conversion cylinder in a Pietta '58 Remington Navy. I'm using the Old West 150 grain RN heeled boolit mold and their special shell holder/crimp die for 38 Colt Long.

Here is a link to my experience with it on another thread here on this site:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...r-38-long-colt

As far as case capacity for 3F - that's going to depend on the heel length of the bullet and the resulting seating depth - how much compression you are using on the load - i.e. - you're going to have to play with it with the brass you have and the boolit you use.

The original heeled bullet 38 Colt Long was an outside lubed cartridge (think like .22 rimfire). IIRC, Outpost75 used an Accurate heeled bullet in his testing that he wrote a very informative article about. The Old West 150 grain mold makes a boolit with a single lube groove - I dip then in melted BP lube after loading - describe what i do in the above link.

A Pietta .36 cap and ball barrel has a groove diameter of .375. If the barrel you ordered has a .380 groove diameter, then I would think that you would need to have a heeled boolit old cut special. If you have to go to a .380 mold - I would question just how well the rounds wold chamber in a conversion cylinder - you'd just have to check the measurements of your conversion cylinder and see.

Since my mold casts the heel a tad larger than .358, I find that I have to ut a very slight bell on the neck to seat the heeled boolit. The Old West collet crimp does a good job of ironing that out as well as applying enough crimp to keep the boolit in place. It's just my personal opinion and others may disagree - but I personally want the heeled boolit crimped in place and I don't want to just rely on neck tension to hold it there as I think that in some instances, you could have a problem with it unseating due to recoil from another cartridge going off in an adjacent chamber. YMMV If you go with a shorter heel to be able to increase your powder capacity in the case volume, you trade off neck tension area and I would think that you would most certainly want a secure crimp.

Outpost75 ran testing on using HB boolits (.358) in the .36 Remington Navy he used and I think he got some pretty impressive results with them. I haven't tried them yet in mine but I would expect good results based on what his experiences were.

Keep in mind that the original Colt 38 Short was a BP cartridge designed especially for use in converted Navy caliber revolvers such as the 1851/61 Colts. The Colt 38 Short was the parent cartridge of the Colt 38 Long. It used a outside lubed heeled boolit and of course the casing was shorter than the Colt 38 Long translating into a smaller powder charge than the 38 Long and they functioned in the converted revolvers and worked just fine for many years. My point being that in looking at those two cartridges - the 38 Colt Short and Long - is the trade off of a shorter heel for a very few more granules of BP worth the trade off? Maybe yes, maybe no - all depends on what you want.

Just as an added note, and I have no financial interest or anything in regards to Old West - they also make a 120ish grain .375 RN heeled boolit mold as well as their 150 grain version. The molds are two cavity and very high quality - I have no complaints at all with the mold, special shell holder or collet crimp that i purchased rom them. I enjoy loading the heeled boolits - a lot of fun.

[smkummer]

Not to get off course, but has anyone tried the heeled conical bullet that usuallly casts beside the round ball for a 36 cap n ball revolver? I have a 1901 colt 38 DA army. I simply use 148 hollow base wadcutters with 2.8 grains bullseye in a 38 special case and it works well. I have yet to procure one of these brass molds for my 2nd generation Colt 1851 navy but will soon. Again, just wondering if the heeled bullet from the mold would work for 38 LC cartridges.

[bedbugbilly]

smkummer - you might be on to something there but it all depends on what the mold drops the heel at. It needs to be .358 - .360 to fit the mouth of the 38 Long case mouth - just the same as if you were seating a .358 boolit.

That said - I use the Eras Gone mold for the .36 Colt Cartridge bullet - this casts a 147 grain heeled bullet that will seat right into the chamber of a .36 c & B revolver and then seated with the loading lever. I don't have any cast up at this time and won't for a few more weeks - but I checked my mold and from my reading with my digital calipers, the base is right around .360 - so technically, yes, it should work and the bullet diameter is .375 + a kosher. When I get dome cast, I will try them and load a couple of dummy rounds in 38 Colt Long and make a post here on it.

I have had several of the brass revolver duplex molds the cast a
rb and a conica and I just never liked the results from the ones I had as far as the conical dropping at the right size and IIRC - mine had a very shallow heel that would not give much neck tension area or area to crimp on so keep that in mind when you look for molds - it probably depends on who made them. FYI - the Eras Gone molds are cut by Lee and sell for $67 - double cavity - in the case for the designs he carries for copies of the various original bullets. Presently they are out of stock for the .36 Colt Cartridge mold as well as the Confederate bullet copy.

Now you have me to thinking if the boolits from my Wld West mold - 150 grain RN heeled - will work in my .36 caliber C & B revolvers - I can check them tomorrow in my Pietta '58 Remington Navy and my Uberti Pocket Police and will let you know - only issue might be the clearance between the loading ram and cylinder. My Pietta '58 has a 6 1;2" barrel - marketed as a belt pistol instead a Navy and the used the sam loading ram as on the 7" barrel Navy so that it extends down into the loading window - enough room to load a RB but I kind of doubt if either the Eras Gone or Old West boolits will have enough clearance.

[bedbugbilly]

smkummer -

For information - I found two samples that I had cast in my Eras Gone .36 Colt Cartridge mold (copy of original heeled bullet for Navy caliber cap and ball pistols). I was casting out of pure soft lead. The diameter of the "heel" measures out at .366 with my digital calipers - a bit big to cram into a 38 Colt Long cartridge casing. The length measurement of the heel portion is a bit hard to get with a set of dial calipers but it appears to be .110 - .112. If it would fit into a Colt Long casing - I probably could get a good enough crimp on it with my Old West special shell holder/collet crimp die so that they wouldn't go any where.

IIRC - Ed (Outpost75) used a heeled boolit from an Accurate mold in his testing. I wanted the experience of loading heeled bullets and I went with the Old West mold, special shell holder/collet crimp die - not inexpensive for the initial set-up but I knew that I would end up shooting it often. I went with a Pietta Remimgtpm'58 Navy style as I like the ease of removing and putting back in a conversion cylinder on a Remington versus having to remove a barrel wedge on an open top Colt clone '51 or '61 Navy. If I had access to machine tools like I used to, I probably would have made up my own crimp tool to apply the crimp, but I no longer have access to metal lathe, mill, etc.

It's just my personal opinion so take it for what it is worth - If I were getting set up to load heeled loads in 38 again - I still would either go with a mold from Old West or have Tom at Accurate cut a mold and be done with it. Looking at what one of the brass Colt style molds that cast a RB and conical sell for now (because of the shortages), you could wrap up money in one and it would be a crap shoot if the conical would work or not where if you buy a heeled boolit mold from someone who specifically is making it for use in the 38 casing, you know that they will work.

I also have a Uberti '51 Colt Navy Richards & Mason conversions and I love it as well - very good shooter. The advantage of a ready made conversion such as that or their other 38 Colt Open tops is that they are made with a .357 bore as opposed to the .375 bore on a cap and ball revolver. In my '51 R & M conversion, I can use a variety of molds that i use for loading standard 38 Colt Short/Long, 38 Special or 357 rounds. It shoots 148 grain PB wadcutters very well and I also use 120 is grain PB RN (Ideal/Lyman 358-242) in it. I recently purchased a NOE 360 - 147 grain PB RN mold to use in it as well but haven't cast any yet. I don't push them hard as there is no treason to - usually use Bulls Eye or Red Dot if loading smokeless or 3F Goes if loading BP.

If a person is wanting to shoot 38s - that is one thing to consider. By the time you buy a cap and ball revolver, buy a conversion cylinder and then add on the price of a heeled bullet mold, you can buy a Uberti or Pietta .36 conversion with a .357 bore and utilize most of the molds you have for loading 38 special/357.