Thoughts On A Gun And Cartridge For Bear Defense?

[MT Gianni]

A grizzly bear head provides a frontal area roughly that of a cantelope - so could you - or anyone for that matter - go from your evening walk to full on charge from 10 yards, draw and shoot and fire accurately enough to save your family? I see several of the posters here have had bear encounters, as have I. It is by the grace of God that I am not bear faeces at this point. My close up encounters have all been encountering a bear where neither of us was.aware of the other. It happens sooooooo fast, the bluff charge is faster than I can come close to drawing, let alone firing - when inside of 20 yards. Many accounts of bear encounters end with a dead bear - and person, implying that even though the gunfire was 'accurate enough' it wasn't instantly fatal. My point being, pick the gun that you feel best about carrying and shoot it until you're sick of it, then shoot another thousand rounds - because if you do end up with the opportunity to make that family saving shot - make sure you've thought of all eventualities.

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Also the head area of a bear is probably on a slant to your line of fire, which can really reduce penetration. Try to break it down by shooting shoulder or spine.

[cwtebay]

Also the head area of a bear is probably on a slant to your line of fire, which can really reduce penetration. Try to break it down by shooting shoulder or spine.

You're not wrong!!! But adrenaline says a lot for man and beast. Here are a couple of pictures of a lowly 250# black bear shot through the thoracic spine. She made it the 80ish yards to me before I shot her through the head. Shot with a 338 Mag with a 225 grain bullet.... both times. (Wish I would have had the forethought to photograph the damage done to her aorta and heart with the first shot).

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[memtb]

With an oxygenated blood system, and the speed at which can travel.....obviously they can go a ways. Had the bear been at powder burn distance on the first shot....the bear could’ve used that 3 or 4 seconds rearranging your body parts! That’s the reason that to stop an attack before tremendous damage can be done, requires a CNS hit. memtb

[tominboise]

Shrapnel and some others have good advice. I was born and raised in Montana and have lived in Boise for 20 years. Personally, I am more worried about Mountain Lions when I am out in the woods as opposed to bears, for the most part. Chances are good that they will make enough noise when out hiking that any wildlife that happens to be in the area will be long gone. They should be making noise.

I always carry a handgun when in the woods (and the rest of time, for that matter), unless I am actually hunting, in which case I will also have a rifle. I have a Glock 10mm and sometimes carry it but also carry N Frame S&W's in a meaningful caliber. I use a chest holster (Gunfighters, Inc Kenai or Hill People Gear Kit bag), as I can wear a back pack and carry a rifle (if hunting) at the same time.

Revolvers need to be double action and they need to practice shooting them DA. They won't have time to draw and cock a single action if the bad thing were to happen. Forget the long gun unless they are going bear hunting.

[outdoorfan]

Ummm, the later bullet was designed to expand rapidly whereas the former was not. Not a good comparison for looking at penetration capabilities...

360640 cup hp, 153 gr, same alloy and bhn as before. Exited 6th jug at 2050 fps impact.

My point is that, who would have thought a puny little 9 mm could give that kind of penetration, through 13 jugs? It blew my mind!

[memtb]

I think that sectional density (weight to diameter) plays favorably for that bullet in a 9mm! Is that particular bullet a round or semi-pointed bullet? memtb

[white eagle]

I searched but didn't find exactly what I was looking for so here goes....my daughter and sil live in Boise and they like to go camping and hiking with their two kids (4 and 6) when the weather is nice so I gave my daughter my Glock 10mm as I was concerned about protection from wild animals but now I'm re-thinking that. I love the 10mm and have quite a collection of them but I think there's a better choice to stop a full grown bear from making a snack out of my grandkids so I was thinking a couple of short barreled AR's in 458 SOCOM with titanium suppressors might do the trick. My question to you guys is if you had a blank check and no restrictions, other than the recoil needs to be manageable, what would your choice be?

10 mm is better than nothing and if it makes you feel good carry it
but a bear is best to be left alone when you walk in his country you are taking a risk
personally a 12 ga loaded with slugs will make them see things your way

[Three44s]

Two women with kids packing a long gun at all times?

Not!

A good revolver that they can handle with both adult females packing a gun that uses the same cartridge. I greatly prefer a DA but an SA might be better for a woman (trigger reach and controllability).

I have seen too many females that could not “rack the slide” of a semi auto pistol. Add the operating complexities and the fact that bullets designed for autos are made to do one thing better than best bear performance. That one thing is to function reliably. Into the chamber and back out. If the shooter limp wrists an auto loader that can also cause a fail to function.

The most likely scenario if they get attacked is not stopping a charge but rather break up a mauling in progress. That’s why both adults need to pack! If the person mauled is the only one packing, how does that solve anything?

MT Gianni nails it!

Unless the bear is posing for a picture hitting the head well in a charge is a fairy tale.

Break the bear down with a substantial slug hitting the approximate area of the front shoulders where they tie together. Then proceed to take it down further.

The bear loses directional control by breaking that front shoulder area and you begin to reassert your control of the situation.

Whimpy bullets from whimpy cartridges are not for me.

With the right loads there are more women that can master the .44 Mag than we realize!

My favorite packer is a S&W 629-4 Mountain Gun with the supplied “Goodyear” rubber grips (44 Mag)

A lady whose is the wife of a good friend and retired cow vet fired some warm up rounds and then my usual non-bear load in HS6 with the RCBS 250K cast. That load is not my first choice for a bear problem BUT if that’s whats in it, then it will have to do!

The load runs 1066 FPS and the lady shooting it is hardly a summo wrestler. She is tall and thin and a retired Airline captain but she is a woods frequenter. She told me she could fire that all day! I was surprised by her comment.

I can not get my wife within a mile of that however! My wife is no dink either but the fist Lady has longer fingers. Thus she could better wrap around the N frame grip. My wife’s fingers are not long enough.

Is 1066 FPS and 250 gr enough. Well John Linebaughs son hunted and killed a Polar bear with a custom Ruger SA shooting that much ballistics out of a 45 Colt!

So my point is big does not have to be bad, in fact managed correctly it is better. The grip frame and trigger reach have to be right for the person shooting it. The person needs some strength. That can be modified by the person themselves with a desire and some work.

While I really believe in DA revolvers, a woman who has hands built more for a SA revolver or just can’t fire a DA in DA mode could well look at a SA revolver. The Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Mag could be a real solution as the smaller lighter frame would pack nicer than a SBH.

It takes desire, time and resources (lighter loads) to affect the proper outcome however. You just do not hand a gun on somebody and reasonably expect them to perform sufficiently.

Three44s

[outdoorfan]

I think that sectional density (weight to diameter) plays favorably for that bullet in a 9mm! Is that particular bullet a round or semi-pointed bullet? memtb

Mp 359-125. Meplat has about 0.23, I think. Although it might be a hair less.

[memtb]

Mp 359-125. Meplat has about 0.23, I think. Although it might be a hair less.

That should be a penetrator, maybe not a devastator.....but darn surely a penetrator. Where penetrating is a must.....that’ll gitt’r done! memtb

[rogn]

Leave the bear spray at home. It works ONLY in ideal conditions and even then it is only 50/50 because of air drift. You will NOT have time to get your gun out when you realize your spray aint gonna work.

And no Ghosthawk, birdshot does not work in side 20 feet, not even point blank. Dont believe me? I can introduce you to a man that dropped a sow at his feet with the last round in his pheasant hunting shotgun. She got up and went into the brush and was never found by G&F

At one point I could introduce you to a Rottweiler that had been shot in the head at point blank range with 12 ga birdshot. I cleaned and flushed the wound, put in a drain and loaded it up with ABs. 6 weeks later you could barely tell it had been shot. As long as you didn't pet its head-there was considerable muscle loss on one side of the head.
Ive also raed a lot of stories where the common "rifled slug" is too soft , flattens out and frequently doesn't penetrate well. Breneke slugs seem to be the preferred brand for serious work.

[memtb]

At one point I could introduce you to a Rottweiler that had been shot in the head at point blank range with 12 ga birdshot. I cleaned and flushed the wound, put in a drain and loaded it up with ABs. 6 weeks later you could barely tell it had been shot. As long as you didn't pet its head-there was considerable muscle loss on one side of the head.
Ive also raed a lot of stories where the common "rifled slug" is too soft , flattens out and frequently doesn't penetrate well. Breneke slugs seem to be the preferred brand for serious work.

Very correct about the typical soft shotgun slug. Already wide a projectile in relation to weight (low sectional density), add to this it’s rapid expansion (flattening) due to it’s softness....equals minimal penetration! memtb

[fcvan]

A guy I knew hunted Africa. He said the guides all carried 12 ga pump shotguns with slugs.

[Kosh75287]

IF THEY WILL CARRY IT RELIGIOUSLY, A lever-action or gas-auto .358 Winchester with a ghost-ring sight. A more "real-world" solution would be a Lever-action .45-70. For short range bear-stopping, I'd BET that even the mild factory load would be very effective.

Since humans cannot normally be expected to always bring a rifle under such circumstances, a 10mm, loaded with a 180 gr. FMJ or LRN to max velocity would be MY choice, IN AN AUTOMATIC.
Any revolver chambered for .41 Mag or larger and loaded with the ballistic (momentum) equivalent of the Keith/Skelton .44 Special load, 7.5/Unique/245 gr. LSWC would be about as good as it can get in terms of portability, controllability and "bear-stop-ability". If more emphatic loads can be shot well by those likely to have to shoot, so much the better. Velocities in the 1100 - 1250 f/s are probably the max that can be well controlled under time pressure, even with considerable practice.

Just because a professional guide killed an attacking bear recently with a 9x19mm DOES NOT MAKE THE 9mm A BEAR-DEFENSE GUN! We need to get away from that, and think in terms of what the minimum handgun ballistics for whitetail deer are, and work up. If it won't reliably drop a medium sized whitetail, I wouldn't feel conifdent about it stopping a bear agitated enough to go after a human.

[Cast10]

I have a fancy to spend some time in Alaska before I get too old. Hope I can! That being said, I have a Glock 10mm/15 shot and now a MechTech upper that replaces the Glock slide with a 16in carbine! It can spew them out too! Red dot site on top of it. I would not feel disadvantaged at all. Carry the carbine and a pistol along. I am building a frame dedicated to the carbine now.

[badguybuster]

Ive hiked and packed through a lot of bear country and as stated "a long gun is better" however a handgun is more likely to be carried. I would not advise anything less than 357 mag with a good heavy hard cast but 44 would be ideal. If a semi, then definitely a heavy 10mm load. That being said, they need to get into the habit of making A LOT of noise while traversing bear country. Theyll avoid you 99% of the time.

[mart]

Shrapnel did a great job of covering this. I live in Alaska and cannot tell you how many times I've seen long guns left in the boat or on the bank out of reach when folks are fishing. I've only ever seen one non hunting hiker carrying a long gun in the last 18 years here in Alaska. And they looked they were sick of packing it. Long guns are better for bear defense if it is on your person, but a family with kids out camping are not going to be strapping a long gun to their body as they go about the routine of setting up camp. It's quite simply going to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like leaning against a tree on the other side of the bear. You can have all the situational awareness in the world and still turn around and have a bear in camp.

A 357 revolver with a good bullet. a stoutly loaded 44 Special or a 10mm with the heavy game loads all will suffice for a novice. I see guys at the range every year, new to Alaska trying to shoot 454s and 500 S&Ws with no experience with that level of recoil. Even with light loads, a revolver chambered for either, that is reasonably packable, has noticeable recoil. And smaller framed folks are not going to be comfortable packing a 4 inch Redhawk, Super Redhawk or 500 S&W. The gun will end up in a pack or back in the car.

There is no perfect answer for the optimum carry gun for bear protection. But it has to be something that can be on the body at all times. And it has to be something the carrier can shoot well.

[megasupermagnum]

IF THEY WILL CARRY IT RELIGIOUSLY, A lever-action or gas-auto .358 Winchester with a ghost-ring sight. A more "real-world" solution would be a Lever-action .45-70. For short range bear-stopping, I'd BET that even the mild factory load would be very effective.

Since humans cannot normally be expected to always bring a rifle under such circumstances, a 10mm, loaded with a 180 gr. FMJ or LRN to max velocity would be MY choice, IN AN AUTOMATIC.
Any revolver chambered for .41 Mag or larger and loaded with the ballistic (momentum) equivalent of the Keith/Skelton .44 Special load, 7.5/Unique/245 gr. LSWC would be about as good as it can get in terms of portability, controllability and "bear-stop-ability". If more emphatic loads can be shot well by those likely to have to shoot, so much the better. Velocities in the 1100 - 1250 f/s are probably the max that can be well controlled under time pressure, even with considerable practice.

Just because a professional guide killed an attacking bear recently with a 9x19mm DOES NOT MAKE THE 9mm A BEAR-DEFENSE GUN! We need to get away from that, and think in terms of what the minimum handgun ballistics for whitetail deer are, and work up. If it won't reliably drop a medium sized whitetail, I wouldn't feel conifdent about it stopping a bear agitated enough to go after a human.

You don't think a 9mm Luger could reliably kill a whitetail?

[Kosh75287]

You don't think a 9mm Luger could reliably kill a whitetail?

YUP! Just like I think a 9x25mm Mauser could reliably kill an Elephant. But THAT doesn't make the 9x25 Mauser an ELEPHANT GUN! FOLLOW the LOGIC, please!

[megasupermagnum]

So what do you consider the minimum handgun ballistics for whitetail deer? The only thing I see wrong with 9mm luger is that factory loadings are either hardball, or fast expanding hollow points. Neither being ideal for hunting. I only ask this because there is no set minimum that everyone agrees on. I can't imagine why I ever would, but given the opportunity, I would gladly hunt deer with a 9mm Luger, or 38 special. I've intentionally hunted, and killed a deer with the 327 Federal, which is only a little more powerful. Personally I'd draw the line at 380 ACP. Anything under that and you would be walking a real fine line between causing enough damage, and still being able to double lung them.

As was stated earlier, 9mm Luger can be quite the penetrator if that is all that is desired.