Thoughts On A Gun And Cartridge For Bear Defense?

[Shawlerbrook]

Was going to add my 2 cents, but Schrapnel pretty much covered it all. I do have a question for Schrapnel as I probably will be carrying my Ruger GP100 on my next Alaska trip. What 357 ammo do you choose for bear( big bear) protection ?

[shrapnel]

Was going to add my 2 cents, but Schrapnel pretty much covered it all. I do have a question for Schrapnel as I probably will be carrying my Ruger GP100 on my next Alaska trip. What 357 ammo do you choose for bear( big bear) protection ?

There are many thoughts on this too. I happen to carry full loaded 158 grain JHC loads. Some may say you need heavier bullets that are solid to penetrate further. Bears a big and big boned, you really need to kill them and a 158 grain bullet in the head will do that.

Bear skulls are not that thick, here is a 7 foot griz skull with a 25-35 bullet hole in it. DRT, the 25-35 isn't the top pick for big bears, but shot right will kill them. Myths abound about 30-06 bullets bouncing off a bear's skull...

[rodwha]

Just know that grizzlies tend to want revenge when shot/injured. Bear spray usually works.

Our 11 year old daughter is not allowed to bring up the rear and she’s not allowed to be too far ahead either.

Air horns work rather well too. For us it’s the first line of defense followed by spray and then my .45 if all else fails. Not so sure I can do the play dead thing.

[megasupermagnum]

There are many thoughts on this too. I happen to carry full loaded 158 grain JHC loads. Some may say you need heavier bullets that are solid to penetrate further. Bears a big and big boned, you really need to kill them and a 158 grain bullet in the head will do that.

Bear skulls are not that thick, here is a 7 foot griz skull with a 25-35 bullet hole in it. DRT, the 25-35 isn't the top pick for big bears, but shot right will kill them. Myths abound about 30-06 bullets bouncing off a bear's skull...

That does bring up an interesting question I've not thought about before. There is no doubt at all that a heavier bullet, say 200 grain, will penetrate farther through flesh than the standard 158 grain. If we are talking about just the skull, I'm not sure it is that simple. I know on hard objects, specifically steel, speed is the answer. A super fast 125 grain bullet is likely to do better against steel than a slower 200 grain. Or just go middle of the road like you did, they likely all work anyway.

[DW475]

There's a lot of good options for bear defense. I'm a 458 Socom fan but wouldn't recommend it unless they were reloading since 458 socom ammo isn't easy to find in the Boise area and it's expensive. I'm very familiar with the Boise area and hunted black bears in that area for many years. I would recommend they go to the indoor range in Boise and try out firearms that the range recommends for protection in bear country and see what is comfortable for them to handle and shoot accurately. Then practice, practice, practice. Also recommend bear bells on the packs when hiking.

[ironbrew]

Up here, we aren't allowed pistols. My choices would be bearspray and a handgun. 10mm should be good from what I've read. Because we aren't allowed handguns in the bush, I run a 45-70 carbine, stock a little shorter than what people seem to think is wise because it doesn't hang up on a coat nearly so easily (I can't emphasize this enough). Ghost rings are my favourite. I moved to a Henry X rifle this year to mount a flashlight on the forestock. The reason I went this way is so I can hunt ungulates and stop a bear with the same rifle. That, and I just like the 45-70.

If I didn't have that, it would be a pump action shotgun.

That being said, a firearm that hasn't been practiced with, or one that isn't carried are both pretty much useless. A handgun is much more likely to get carried.

[Wayne Smith]

I can't over emphasize the importance of practice, practice, and practice. Years ago when I was in grad school I was shooting on a regular basis at the Los Angeles South Coast Gun Club (yeah, it was that long ago). With my Super Blackhawk I could routinely hit six out of six at 100 yds on a 10" steel plate. Six months later, moved to New Hampshire, no practice, I hit one of six at the same target at the same range.

Especially with a handgun ongoing practice is essential, no matter what they carry.

[Norske]

Shrapnel's advice should be taken seriously. He lives and guides there. Phil Schoemaker (sp?) of Alaska (grizzlyskinsofalaska.com) recommends bear spray for all but expert shooters. The disadvantage of spray is the wind must be from behind the user, or the user is the recipient. Bear spray is a fog, not a stream like police spray. That's because if you need it, you won't have time to aim. Our stream fishing guide on Quartz Creek, Alaska carried a 44 magnum in a chest holster. He grew up on Kodiak Island. He explained to me the "Alaska load." I asked him why we commonly saw family groups in state forest trails with a 12 gauge shotgun-carrying young man. The Alaska load is a birdshot round in the chamber, then an extended magazine filled with slugs. If the "pheasant/duck" load to the bear's front doesn't turn the bear, the slugs will dismember even a big Alaskan brown bear.

[reloader28]

Leave the bear spray at home. It works ONLY in ideal conditions and even then it is only 50/50 because of air drift. You will NOT have time to get your gun out when you realize your spray aint gonna work.

And no Ghosthawk, birdshot does not work in side 20 feet, not even point blank. Dont believe me? I can introduce you to a man that dropped a sow at his feet with the last round in his pheasant hunting shotgun. She got up and went into the brush and was never found by G&F

[gbrown]

I was taught to shoot the 12 guage at the SO and FBI SWAT training from the hip. I'm right handed--tight grip, right forearm locked on top of stock, stock tight to waist, left hand on pump action (Remington 870). Left leg slightly forward, bend/lean forward, fire. See where you are patterning, reposition body til you can hit dead center at 25yds. You can use lighter loads for practice, then when confident, move up to buck or slug loads. Practice, practice, practice.

[outdoorfan]

That does bring up an interesting question I've not thought about before. There is no doubt at all that a heavier bullet, say 200 grain, will penetrate farther through flesh than the standard 158 grain. If we are talking about just the skull, I'm not sure it is that simple. I know on hard objects, specifically steel, speed is the answer. A super fast 125 grain bullet is likely to do better against steel than a slower 200 grain. Or just go middle of the road like you did, they likely all work anyway.

135 gr rnfp at 1200 fps out of 9mm went through 13 one gallon milk jugs with water. Barnes 165 ttsx at 3000 FPS penetrated 6. Yeah, the lighter pistol bullet penetrates just fine.

[M-Tecs]

My first choice is to have a firearm available. Camping and hiking with a long gun in a relatively low threat area get old really fast. While it's very true that it's easier to hit with a rifle or shotgun that only applies when it's within arms reach.

Some actual stats on handgun verse bear encounters here

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/upd...#axzz6iHJ2ADIk

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz6iHJ2ADIk

In some case the bear was not hit however the noise and or muzzle flash stopped the encounter.

[JSnover]

so I was thinking a couple of short barreled AR's in 458 SOCOM with titanium suppressors might do the trick.

I wouldn't bother with anything like that. Way too much money for a pair of guns that might never be used, features and options that need to be learned, plus more weight to carry while they're out hiking with the kids. Ammo might be hard to find but on the plus side you'll probably never need more than one box. Stick with the 10mm, Get some range time in, they'll be fine.

[pls1911]

Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull... practice with 45 colt ammo is actually pleasant.
I'd think in actual use, adrenaline will negate the recoil difference.
Make no mistake... after much practice with full up .454 ammo, your orthoMD will insist you leave it at home, sell it, or prepare to be have life long wrist issues.
(No, I don't plan on any bear encounters....but who does?)

Having said that, the commentary promoting the 12 gauge solution is the best and most practical, if you'll carry it.

[Eddie Southgate]

Hard cast bullets with a fairly stout load . I would be carrying my Charter Arms Target Bulldog .44 Spl with Elmer's bullet and Skeeters 7.5 gr of Unique . It's light even with the 4" barrel and has good sights . Only has 5 rounds but if 5 good hits don't stop it one more is not likely gonna make much difference . If I was in real bear country I'd back that up with a light 12ga with slugs .

[dverna]

A long gun is definitely out as it is too easy to leave it where a child can get at it at the camp and leaving it unloaded makes it next to useless. So you need something they will carry on them ALL THE TIME so the kids cannot get to it. They are likely going to miss anyway unless the bear is really close so hopefully the noise drives the bear away. Not many "normal" folks can hit much with a pistol under ideal conditions. Being all pumped up and defending your kids makes it even tougher, so it is more a "feel good" thing and noise maker.

Have some air horns laying around. The kids can deploy them when they see a bear. Tie the kids to a tree so they do not wander off. Get ready for CPS to visit for tying up the kids.... Best thing is to get a dog and not one they love a lot. The dog gives time to get the away, or get to the shotgun loaded with buckshot that is locked up somewhere.....LOL

I only have black bears here and one big one that bothers us. He loves to dumpster dive. I carry a 9mm or .40 Glock in the spring if out in the woods, or walking to the mail box (it is 2.5 miles away...yep live a bit isolated). Not sure about the bears they will face, but here, unless you get between a sow and her cubs, you will only see the south end of a north bound bear if you walk up on one. I love dogs so would feel bad about using one to tangle with a pissed off bear while I ran away like a little girl. YMMV

[memtb]

A long gun....shotgun with slugs or larger caliber rifle with premium, or heavy for caliber cast bullets, trump a handgun every time. The problem with long guns is that, they are somewhat impractical to carry “full-time” when doing camp chores or activities with the family. A bear rarely announces it’s intentions prior to an earnest attack! Unless, the long gun is in your hands, you may not get into the fight....unless another family member has the bears undivided attention. Then, try not to shoot a loved one!

Many folks want a medium to large caliber semi-auto, because of the rapid shots available. Going back to the previous long gun statement....the bear rarely announces it’s intentions. Meaning you may not even get the handgun into the fight, and if you do, rapid fire, accurate shots are improbable ....unless your Jerry Miculek! IMO, you would be better armed with a large caliber (.44 and larger) revolver, shooting heavy for caliber, cast, wide metplat bullets....and assume that at best you may only get one or two semi-well placed shots into the bear. Assuming that you only get a round or two off.....the biggest, heaviest, non-expanding bullets are a plus. Whether semi-auto or revolver....the shooter needs to be proficient with the firearm! And, as mentioned before....you don’t want to take out a loved one.

Composure under duress is at a premium in these situations!

Which now brings us to pepper spray. The aforementioned comments also apply here....the pepper spray must be readily available! The huge advantage with pepper spray is accuracy is not at a premium. You have a fairly wide spray pattern, you don’t need a near surgically placed shot to stop the bear....you literally, “spray and pray”! If you “hose-down” a family member, while “hosing-down” the bear.....they merely suffer some intense discomfort rather than a potentially life ending bullet wound. The one huge negative with spray.....wind direction. If you are the one being attacked, wind doesn’t figure into the equation.... as it’s happening at “point blank” range. If it’s a family member, again composure under duress is involved, close the distance so wind is not a factor. Not only will you be able to get the spray on target, but you may distract the bear....before the attack becomes terminal for the one being attacked!

It’s very easy to apply all of these concepts from the safety of my keyboard....but, I think that they are pretty valid statements.

I’ve only killed two black bears (one handgun, one rifle), and no grizzlies. The handgun black bear (hunting) was less than 10 feet from me, and I couldn’t get a shot off....thick brush between the bear and I. The actual shot came minutes later at a distance of around 30 yards....I stalked up to the bear! I was pretty composed....but, I wasn’t being attacked.

The commonalities of Black Bears, and Grizzlies.....they both can move almost silently, can move very fast,powerful, and are deadly predators! memtb

[rodwha]

135 gr rnfp at 1200 fps out of 9mm went through 13 one gallon milk jugs with water. Barnes 165 ttsx at 3000 FPS penetrated 6. Yeah, the lighter pistol bullet penetrates just fine.

Ummm, the later bullet was designed to expand rapidly whereas the former was not. Not a good comparison for looking at penetration capabilities...

[cwtebay]

A grizzly bear head provides a frontal area roughly that of a cantelope - so could you - or anyone for that matter - go from your evening walk to full on charge from 10 yards, draw and shoot and fire accurately enough to save your family? I see several of the posters here have had bear encounters, as have I. It is by the grace of God that I am not bear faeces at this point. My close up encounters have all been encountering a bear where neither of us was.aware of the other. It happens sooooooo fast, the bluff charge is faster than I can come close to drawing, let alone firing - when inside of 20 yards. Many accounts of bear encounters end with a dead bear - and person, implying that even though the gunfire was 'accurate enough' it wasn't instantly fatal. My point being, pick the gun that you feel best about carrying and shoot it until you're sick of it, then shoot another thousand rounds - because if you do end up with the opportunity to make that family saving shot - make sure you've thought of all eventualities.

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[rodwha]

Didn’t register it was posted...