BP 45-70 cartridge loading - trapdoor Springfields - new to me and some ??

[bedbugbilly]

Years ago, I had a cut-down 1873 Springfield trapdoor but I never loaded for it or fired it as I just didn’t have the interest then – I was pretty tied up with rifled muckets. Long story short – I let it get away and have regretted it for quite a while now as it would have made a good “faux carbine”. At this time, I’m looking out for a 1873 model that will be a good shooter grade. I recently bought a set of 45-70 dies form a fellow on here – they are on the way and they include a compression die – I just bought a Lyman 457-193 405 grain flat nose mold so am now looking for some brass. I have been starting to read as much as I can on loading the 45-70 cartridge and have found some excellent threads on here – but like anything you try to bone up on – you find that you have more questions. I am hoping that those that load the 45-70 BP cartridge can “educate” me a little.

1. In my reading of the threads on here – it has been mentioned to never compress the BP load with the lead bullet. Most mention that they use a drop tube and most mention using an over the powder wad. I can build a 24” drop tube easily enough – but my first question is that I understand why the drop tube is used – that it trickles the grains into the casing so that they are “arranged” and that it makes a more uniform/accurate load. Given that – if you are loading a 45-70 round, and you are using 70 grains of 2F (I will be using Grafs {Goex} 2F) what advantage does the drop tube provide over measuring a 70 grain charge (by volume) and just pouring it into the casing, sitting the casing base on the table and gently shaking it to settle the grains of the charge together? Does this not accomplish the same goal of having a “settled charge” that would be pretty consistent in height in the casing prior to using the compression die? Or is the drop tube primarily used by competitive shooters to achieve a more accurate load? (My shooting will strictly be plinking, hitting steel, etc. at a variety of distances.) I want to do things the correct way and there may be something I’m not seeing between using a drop tube and settling the charge in the casing by gently shaking it?

2. In my reading, I see a lot of references to using an over the powder wad. The Lyman 457-193 is a flat plain base bullet and I will be casting out of soft lead – probably finger lubing with my BP lube prior to seating or possibly pan lubing them. What is the purpose of using a wad (I have seen references to some using a vegetable fiber wad) over the powder? To prevent lube migration to the powder charge or for another purpose? A quick look at the Track of the Wolf pages for 45-70 loading items shows a .125 thick card wad, a fiber wad and a thick fiber wad that is .500 thick – all .460 diameter. If a person wants to load a reduced BP charge – say 50 grains by volume – is the .500 thick fiber wad and/or a combination of the wads used to take up the empty volume in the casing – compressing the charge first and then building up the wads to take up the empty space and then seating the bullet?

3. The Lyman 457-193 – 405 grain slug should fall at .457 but we all know that depends on a lot of things. It is my understanding that the 45-70 trapdoors have a bore groove diameter closer to .458”. So, will the soft lead slug that for all intents and purposes is .457 expand into the .458 bore upon firing or do you run the risk of leading problems. In reading, I have also seen references to, what I am assuming, folks paper patching the slug to .458 or .458 +. Paper patching is not an issue for me, I’m just curious as to how many paper patch for general shooting out of a trapdoor or is it necessary?

These are just questions that have come up in my mind as I’ve been reading and hopefully someone who loads the 45/70 or is shooting the trapdoors can set my thinking straight. I like the history of the trapdoors and as I’m not getting any younger, I am looking forward to finding one and just having fun shooting it. And I’ll add that I have no interest in using any smokeless loads in one – just good ole BP.

Thanks for help/info – greatly appreciated!

Jim

[tnlonghunter]

I think skipping the drop tube and agitating the case gets at the same idea, but you'll get more consistent results with the drop tube.

The wad serves 2 purposes from what I can tell. The first is to give the compression die something more consistent to press against than the loose powder. The other is to create the necessary buffer between the top of your powder column and the bullet base, since you can't have any air gap between bullet and powder. That is, if you need to seat your bullet out at a certain position but your best powder charge and compression amount.

All that said, I don't know if you need to worry as much about all the details with an antique Trapdoor. Most of that stuff is geared to wring out as much accuracy as possible, but I'm not sure if the Trapdoor will really give that to you anyway. I'd probably just start with drop filling enough 2f to where you need about 1/8" compression with the bullet seated.

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[ascast]

I would caution you about muzzle wear. I have a very nice, minty '88. It never shot worth a dang. I mean 6 ft groups at 100 yds. I tried a dozen boollits, and more powders and primers. Then I did a "chamber cast" of the muzzle and first few inches. Cleaning rod wear had worn off the rifling off two sections to deeper than groove dia. A counter bore job about 4 inches deep made it back into a 500 meter ram hitter. Just something to look for. best of luck

[Drydock]

The key to BP loading is consistency. Gravity and time are constants, so it is easier to get more consistent results pouring slowly into a drop tube than shaking. The wad is to protect the bullet and ease it's transition thru the muzzle. Not used for military loads, though useful once you start refining your loads.

If you use a consistent amount of powder, compressed a consistent amount, with a properly sized and lubricated bullet. minimum .459 diameter, seated to a consistant depth, then you will get consistant results, probably in the 3 to 5 MOA range, depending on the condition of the rifle. You can lightly compress with the bullet, up to 1/8 of an inch, more than that a compression die is needed, to avoid bullet deformation, thus reducing consistency. No air space in the cartridge. You will not get 70 grains in most cases with out using a compression die, but 65 will work just fine and propel a 405 grain bullet the length of a Bison.

Simple: A consistent powder charge, under a consistent properly lubed bullet, will give consistent results. Then you begin refineing the load. Mike Venturino's "Shooting BUffalo Rifles of the Old West" is a damn good starting point. And go thru your rifle, as has been said, a worn muzzle will give poor results.

That bullet may hold enough lube for BP. Look for the classic older designs like the Lyman 457124, or the Lee 459-405HB. Designs with wide and deep lube grooves. The TD barrel was designed to shoot lubed bullets, with deep 50% grooves that work best with bullets in the 459-461 range. Paper patch is a whole different game!

[Chill Wills]

I would caution you about muzzle wear. I have a very nice, minty '88. It never shot worth a dang. I mean 6 ft groups at 100 yds. I tried a dozen boollits, and more powders and primers. Then I did a "chamber cast" of the muzzle and first few inches. Cleaning rod wear had worn off the rifling off two sections to deeper than groove dia. A counter bore job about 4 inches deep made it back into a 500 meter ram hitter. Just something to look for. best of luck

This is a good point anytime you buy an old or even modern used rifle.
I have had more than one rifle of the 1880s era, in otherwise nice shape, that had the muzzle wallowed out from careless use of the cleaning rod. And they don't shoot worth a hoot! Sad! The fix is as described above or a barrel reline, for something that could have been avoided.

[country gent]

A lot do compress black powder just not with the bullet they use a special die for the purpose. reason being the force may distort the soft bullets used. I use a 3 ft drop tube to presettle the charge then a compression die to set it to final height in the case. It works and can make a big difference in the loads accuracy. The drop tube and a sliw trickle will stack and settle the charge much better to start out.

Wads can be a variety of materials an thicknesses. They do provide protection to the base of the bullet. My standard wad stack is 1 .060 napa rubber fiber gasket wad and 2 typing paper wads. The heavy wad seals bore and protects bullet the 2 TP wads insure release of the heavy wad. You dont want any airspace between the bullet and powder charge this can ring a chamber. If you want a lighter load cream of wheat or a wad stack to fill the airspace.

Bullets should be groove dia +.001-.002 larger. I have heard of trapdoors going as big as .461. so this needs a bore slugging to find what you need with grease grooves. Paper Parched can go 2 ways traditional was a smooth slug measuring .443 or so then 2 wraps of thin paper for a finished dia of .449-.450 a bore riding bullet that swell up on fring to grip the rifling. These are only seated into the case .125-.187 deep leaving more room for powder and seating the bullet into the bore f the barrel much farther to center it starting out. The last is bullet pp to grove dia. I havent done much with these. But finished the wrapped bullet is groove dia +.001.

I shoot these big rifles out to 500 yds ( a rams at 500 yds are usually 9 out of 10) There are some tricks to help with these big rounds that may help'

My brass goes into a gallon jug of dish soap water after each relay or string and soaks. This keeps fouling soft and loose. When home and gear is unloaded. I pour of the water and rinse 3-4 times in hot tap water. this removes a lot of the fouling. Deprime by hand and dry.

I clean brass in corn cobs and iosso brass polish with a little nufinish and 4 ounces of alcohol for a couple hours. Makes a nice shinny case that is easy to handle.

I then prime the cases for some loads there is a primer wad between case and primer.

charge cases trickling charge into case with a 3' drop tube. I then add the .060 wad by hand.

Compress the charge with the die to depth and add the 2 tp wads then bump again

hand seat the bullet snug onto the wad stack

size around bullet to set neck tension in the bullet. My tension is very light bullet is held in case but can be spun by hand. I dont normally crimp for the single shot rifle

By waiting to size till the end it saves the wear and stress of belling the case mouths. Even better for this is a bushing die that can be adjusted to size.

I also anneal every other loading

Most of my loads are in the 8-13 fps extreme spread range. in 45-70 my bullets are in the 500-550 grn weight range.


Wrapping PP bullets you need to make a template to cut the patch. 2 wraps with the ends 1/32 shy of touching. This account for the light radius where the patch wraps over the front of the patch allowing the tail to lay flatter. wrap tailless leaving a small portion of the base showing in center of base, about .125 is fine give or take a little. This allows the bullet to sit flatter. You can wrap with the patch dampened or dry. set a sponge on a small plate or shallow bowl and sit patch on it, I usually set 5 in it and then replace each as I use one. You will see the sponge curl and then un curl paper will just feel barely damp. wrap and form base let dry and then wipe lightly with jojoba oil. These are ready to load.

A small patching board makes wrapping easy and constant, You can sit in front of the tv and wrap a few hundred pretty quick. A patch board can be made with a table saw drill press and hand tools. I normally use a 1 x 6 x 8" hard wood bore a 1/4" saw cut 1/2" in from 8" edge. a rail down left end a threaded stop on the right end above the groove. The rail can be brass aluminum wood or plastic. it set the patch square to the bullet. The threaded stop comes across to the tip of the bullet setting the bullets location on the patch setting the fold over. With a sharp chisel or small plane bevel top edges of the saw cut to allow paper to slide easier.

[indian joe]

Jim
1) I want accurate so I weigh the charge ..... depending on how careful (or not) you are its easy to get a grain or two variance in scoop (measured volume) charges. Some blokes drop tube, some shake settle, some do both, some just pour it in and go. If you dont pack the charge you will get a much more variable amount of compression through the powder column when you use the compression die. Your choice - all methods work - some works better than others accuracy wise.
2) overpowder wad -- my groups went to half when I moved from shooting bare boolit to using an overpowder wad - reason enough to do it I reckon! - I use a 40thou HDPE poly wad cut .460 ----again your choice .......juice box works...... some blokes use vege fibre (I have no idea what that stuff even is! - proly goes by a different name downunder) .... gasket material ..... tablet backing card -------I like the HDPE and can get it easy by cutting up ten litre water containers from the grocery store .....I believe proper wad sizing probably more important than the material and I think stuff like juice box a bit thin for the 45/70 so use two thicknesses. Purpose? my take - to protect the base of the boolit from gas cutting .
3) Diameter? most molds will drop a tad oversize and that is a good thing - sure a skinny soft lead slug might expand up to fill the bore - but you will have more problems with accuracy and leading from undersize than oversize boolits - I would have no hesitation using a .460 boolit in a .457 bore but my rifles are new barrels and some blokes might say that is too much oversize.
paper patching ? leave it for the gurus of the paper patch or at least for down the track a ways

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My BP compression tools are very simple, industrial nylon where one end is turned to fit the seating die and the other left with the correct length to seat whatever boolit you are using. My most used bullet is a 420gn Hensley & Gibbs that casts 0.460". There are any number of good boolits for the trapdoor.

[bedbugbilly]

I want to thank everyone for the great information you provided. I have copied it off and put it in my reloading notebook.

Up until now, my BP cartridge loading has been limited to 38 Colt Short & Long, 38 Special, 357 Mag, 45 Colt/Schofield and the fairly simple Smith Carbine loads. Nothing spectacular as compared to the rifle cartridges. One thing I have learned with those is that “consistency” helps greatly and that seems to be an even more common thread reading your answers in regards to the 45/70. I don’t want to take “short cuts” even though I know my shooting will be pretty much limited to general plinking – and I will also want to do some distance shootings just to see how close I can come to the prospective target in order to scare it. 

ascast – thanks for the reminder on keeping an eye out for muzzle wear on a trap door. Many years ago, when I first started shooting N-SSA, about the only reproductions out there was the Remington Zouave .58 rifled musket. Most fellows were shooting originals, which in those days were fairly easy to come across. I started out with a 1864 Watertown contract musket (1861 pattern) and it shot well as the bore was pretty much pristine. Over the years though, I saw and handled many .58 rifled muskets that looked good but the bore was less than pristine. I had a friend who bought a 1861 model that looked great but wouldn’t shoot worth a darn. I pulled it down for him and removed the breech plug and right away could see that it had some heavy muzzle wear from the iron ramrod and quite a few rounds through it. He sent it off for a re-line job and when it came back it was an entirely different shooter. With a breech-loader one kind of forgets about the muzzle wear at times. I recently read the description of a trapdoor and it was described as having a pristine bright bore – further on in the description it stated that it had obviously had a repair as it looked like someone had added a smoothbore section to the end of the bore. Obviousley, it had been counter-bored as you describe. That is one of the first questions I will ask if I run across a TD on-line as I don’t want to buy a “problem child” if I can help it. I’m hoping I can run across a TD that I can take a good look at before buying.

I will go the drop tube route and I am currently making some changes to my reloading bench her in AZ. As I do it, I will make provisions for and make both a 24” and a 36” drop tubes. I make and use dippers for a number of my BP pistol loads and commonly check the volumes to the weights on the beam scale to make sure that I am staying consistent. But, I weigh out my smokeless charges for my rifle loads and it is easy enough to do the same for the BP for the 45-70 loads. I will practice on the loads – weighing and using the drop tube as well as seeing how consistent the powder column is in the casing. You’ve given good instructions on the compressing as well as the use of wads so I don’t think it will take long to get the knack of loading them.

Thanks also for the warning of trying to cram in 70 grains of 2F into a 45/70 casing. From your comments and from what I have since read, I don’t see the need to do that kind of a compression for what I want to do. Right now, my biggest concern is if the mold I have will work with what I get for a rifle, but I’ll cross that bridge when I get there. With the shortages and inflated prices on everything, if I have to, I can always have Accurate make a mold.

I like the idea of reloading “historical cartridges” as much as I do like shooting them in the historical firearms. Since I have started this quest to get a 45/70, I have seen several videos of fellows shooting BP cartridges in their Henry single shot 45/70s with some excellent results. Yep . . . I know the issues osme have with the triggers on the Henry single shots but I adapt to those things fairly easy and they can always be improved through a little work. If I can’t find a decent trap door for a while, I may consider picking up a Henry single shot in 45/70 to get my feet wet. For the price, it would give me a rifle with a good new bore, be a single shot and allow me to work on going through the paces of making up a good load that would shoot well out of the rifle. Then if I run across a trapdoor – the Henry could always be sold. And who knows what a person might run across. I wouldn’t rule out a Sharps or a rolling block in a historical configuration if the price was right.

A big thanks again and I am looking forward to getting all of my things together and getting started.

Jim

[Edward]

Don"t over look the Handi rifle if you can find one ,mine works well/Ed

[Larry Gibson]

You might find some information here pertinent to loading for your trapdoor....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-and-Equipment

[salvadore]

I just happen to own a cut down musket AKA faux carbine. I shot 2" groups @100yds using a mold marked .462 so I guess I slugged the barrel when I got it using a forgotten amount of pyrodex, that was 30 or 40 years past (if you have BP you should just throw it out....Kidding, shoot what you want). I've played with it some casually since. It has a custom carved puma on the butt stock and oak leaves on the fore end. I'm pretty sure it came that way from the factory. Anyway, you may want to slug the bore prior to ordering a mold.

[Drydock]

Not sure anyone mentioned it, but be aware that different brands of brass hold different amounts of powder. Winchester holds the most, Federal the least, Remington and Starline seem pretty close. I use Winchester for my precision loads, just because I can get closer to army ballistics with it than any other. But in the interest of consistency it's best to not have mixed brass.

[aap2]

Larry Gibson’s link has a ton of helpful info; get a copy of Spence Wolf’s book if you can. Many years ago I bought an 1884 Trapdoor that was in unfired condition...literally right out of the armory crate unfired. Accuracy was dismal with loads listed in reloading manuals so it was a wall hanger for 40 years. Then I got a copy of Spence Wolf’s book and was able to assemble service loads that turned that rifle into a long range tack driver.

[Sparkfly88]

I recently got a trapdoor myself actually, then immediately bought the stuff to load for it. I don't do anything fancy, and I guess I lucked out.
I cast a lee 405 HB, dip lube, pour 70 grains of 2f into the expanding die while expanding.
Then seat the bullet into the case, compressing the powder ⅛~¼ an inch. No wad or anything.
Never used em while muzzle loading, why start now..
Shoots great, no leading.

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[varsity07840]

Well, for one thing, wads are not usually recommended for the 405 HB.