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Thread: 8.15x46R Schuetzen

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    8.15x46R Schuetzen

    One of my buddies recently purchased a nice old Hanel (spelling could be wrong) single shot schuetzen in the 8.15x46R !

    Before he bought it I loaded some mild 32-40's with the Lyman PB mold you can still purchase . And we tried it at the range . Shot pretty well I thought for a stab in the dark .

    Anyway I have since ordered a set of CH4D dies along with a .321" sizer and I gave him 50 pieces of 32-40 brass of which 25 had already been fire formed in the rifle .

    I've also lent him a Ideal "Perfection" adjustable mold and a Ideal loading tool with the mold attached to cast bullets for this rifle .

    Now my question !

    The case for this thing is "supposed" to be 46 millimeters correct ?

    So that means we need to trim a good deal from the cases correct ? I am just surprised the untrimmed 32-40's went into the rifle if this is the case !

    Also do any of you guys who shoot this round breech seat your ammo at the bench ?
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  2. #2
    Boolit Master at Heaven's Range, 2009 Phil's Avatar
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    Hi Sika,

    I have some experience with the 8.15 cartridge and may be able to help you a bit. The photo below is of two RWS 8.15x46R cases. The one on the right has been fired about 1500 times or so, a bit more than that I think. The one on the left has only been fired about 500 times, give or take. The cases are 1.810" long. They have been run through my RCBS trim die this fall, just for something to do. They didn't need it. They have never needed sized or trimmed at all, except once I dropped one and stepped on it. Had to run it through the die to straighten out the mouth.

    The Germans used this round in a different manner than we do. The bullet was bore sized with a belt of groove size in approximately the middle of it. The case was primed and charged with either loose powder or premeasured paper packets that were just dropped in the case mouth. The bullet was then inserted in the case mouth and the round chambered and fired. I can't remember what the German bullets weighed, memory says about 170 grains. I think the groove diameter on these was .318".

    My 8.15 was built on a Ruger No3 action and the barrel was .323" groove diameter. The bullet I used was from a mold Richard Hoch made for me. It was 1.2" long, tapered and "pointed" except for a very small meplat for the sprue cutter, and weighed 225 grains. It was a nose pour mold. I breech seated the bullets about .030" ahead of the case mouth. It would shoot in the .3 moa range all day at 100 yards with a best group of .162" at 100 yards fired at a tournament at Aurora, Illinois many years ago.

    Unless the chamber on your rifle has been altered I have no idea how you are able to chamber a 32-40 round. I had a set of CH dies years ago and they didn't match the RWS cases in shape at all. RCBS had the proper dies for the RWS cases. Somewhere around 13 grains of SR4759, lit with a CCI large pistol primer, gave 1400 fps and SD's in the 6fps range.

    If I can supply you with any more information on this project please don't hesitate to ask. The 8.15 is a superb cast bullet round and I'd not hesitate to recommend it.

    Cheers,

    Phil




  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Sika,
    I believe that I still have a .318 die for the 450 around somewhere, if you need it.
    I sold my 8.15x46 years ago, in a moment of weakness.

    Jack

  4. #4
    Boolit Master at Heaven's Range, 2009 Phil's Avatar
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    You know, in moments of complete stupidity I have done some really inexcusable things. Many years ago, at the OGCA gun show at Columbus, Ohio, early in the first day of the show, I watched a fellow unload a batch of really beat looking WWI vintage German rifles, just piling them on his table. I stopped and looked, and found a very, very nice Wehrsmann Gewehr with a single shot action (solid bottom receiver). The bore was like new and except for some modest dirt on the outside of the gun that would just brush off, it was a very worthy piece. The price was unbelievably low, about a hundred bucks or so. But, I had just gotten there and thought I'd just wander around a bit and see what else was there. I walked about two tables and thought I just had to go back and get that rifle. When I got there a fellow had just paid for it and walking off with it. Made me sick but it was my own fault. Sigh.

    Phil

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    SOmething else thats thrown me about this thing !

    If 8.15mm's is the correct bullet diameter then the thing should roughly be 338 caliber however in most cases what I've read said bullets cast for a 32-40 should work hence .319-.323 depending on barrel ! The bullets I shot in this rifle in the 32-40 cases were sized and lubed at .323" and they shot pretty well i think .

    I had my buddy get another friend to make a chamber cast and the thing "looks" like it has the standerd 8.15x46R chamber . I think the throat in this thing may be a tad large as it looks like the extra part of the 32-40 case slid right up into it .
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    So then we should be able to load this thing without sizing case at all !

    All I should have to do is prime and deprime .

    The CH4D dies were not overly expensive as dies go ! About $50 with shipping I think !
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy bearmn56's Avatar
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    Sounds like a nice rifle. I have a German tip-up actioned rifle in this caliber. My bore diameter is .314, with a 1-12 twist. This was a German target cartridge and bore diameters can be all over the place. From the .314 that I have to some that, according to a friend who collects rifles in this caliber, are up to .350 bore diameter. One has to slug the bore. I make my cases out of new Winchester brand 30-30brass. The correct trim length is 1.8". The rim diameter is .484, just a little smaller than the .500 of the 30-30 brass. I have a couple of moulds for 150-165gr GC. Both shoot great. I use 16-17gr of AA 5744, a large magnum pistol primer (my rifle has a slightly soft firing pin fall) and seat the bullets out to just touch the rifling without stickiness if I have to extract a live round.
    These rifle can shoot extremely well. Mine will shoot 3" groups at 100 yds from a rest with open sights. With the target type peep sights, I am shure these guns can shoot better than that.
    Probably the rifle you are working with has a larger bore diameter which allows the longer 32-40 brass cases to extend up into the throat. Once you get your cases trimmed and know the bore diameter, you can find some bullets of suitable diameter. Glen Hills Cast bullets has several types on Gunbroker. Another source of bullets to try would be Western Bullet Co in Missoula, MT. Jon knows something about these guns and can maybe come up with some bullets to try out.
    Anyway, Hope this helps,
    Good Shooting
    Bearmn 56
    Montana Territory

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    We just might possibly have this thing on it's way before the first of the year !

    As the dies should be here tommorrow or thursday i think !
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearmn56 View Post
    I have a couple of moulds for 150-165gr GC. Both shoot great. I use 16-17gr of AA 5744.

    Probably the rifle you are working with has a larger bore diameter which allows the longer 32-40 brass cases to extend up into the throat. Anyway, Hope this helps,
    Good Shooting
    Bearmn 56
    Montana Territory
    The first loads I made when we went to go see the rifle and give her a go were the Lyman 32-40 plain base mold you can still get with 15 grains of XMP5744 and a CCI200 . And they did pretty well all things considered .

    The bore diameter is not over .323" as a lead bullet would not go inside easily from the muzzle .

    I'm just curiouse as to why they have such a LONG throat in the darn thing . My Ideal adjustable "Perfection" mold will cast a bullet up to 320 grains ! I think I wanna start with about a 210 grain bullet and seat it out in the case as far as possible .

    I told my friend if I got this thing to shooting inside 2" at 100 yards for 3 shots with peep sights I wanted to use it to knock over a deer next season
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy bearmn56's Avatar
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    Sika,
    Mine has a longer throat too. My 165 gr GC bullet is of the Loverin design. Lots of grease grooves and fairly long. I can seat this bullet quite far out of the case to lightly engage the rifling while having plenty of the bullet in the neck. In fact, the GC is right at the end of the straight part of the neck.
    Any good lead bullet cast fairly soft would kill a deer with room to spare. This is a great cartridge... In my humble opinion, every bit as good as any 32-40.
    Hope you can get it shooting well. Hunting with PB is a hoot. I have a 9x57mm Mauser custom that I hunted with this year. I was using the 358009 Lyman bullet cast fairly soft at 290gr. I duplicated the original ballistics of the 280gr jacketed load using AA4064 (42.0gr) for 1925fps. I got a nice little spike white tail deer this season. Clean kill.
    Enjoy

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
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    greetings,

    these guns were made before SAMI, each mfg. had thier own idea of what the cal should be. so you will find a lot of these guns to be close but not all the same..

    ..ttfn..grampa..

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearmn56 View Post
    Sika,

    This is a great cartridge... In my humble opinion, every bit as good as any 32-40.
    Hope you can get it shooting well. Hunting with PB is a hoot. I have a 9x57mm Mauser custom that I hunted with this year. I was using the 358009 Lyman bullet cast fairly soft at 290gr. I duplicated the original ballistics of the 280gr jacketed load using AA4064 (42.0gr) for 1925fps. I got a nice little spike white tail deer this season. Clean kill.
    Enjoy

    I don't know now I'm kinda partial to my old 1906 vintage Marlin 1893 thats in 32-40 ! Plowed a 3 pointer with it three years ago !

    I've used plain base to pop a deer with my 45-70 and another with my 40-65 both Marlin's of course
    That 45-70 was one of the new CB's and I took a large bodied 6 pointer . But I really got a charge with the 40-65 ! I killed a doe with it three seasons ago at about 45 yards , but the cool part was the fact that the gun was made in 1896 !
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold
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    Like xxgrandpa said, lots of variation in the 8.15 x 46 chambers especially in the earlier rifles. Lots of these guns were rechambered to other stuff after liberation. 32-40 and 32 WCF were often used. I have one chambered for the 30-40 case. If it is the original chamber, it likely has a larger forcing cone designed for the German stop ring bullet (NEI makes a mold). A chamber cast would reveal all for you.
    Jim

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumb Center View Post
    Like xxgrandpa said, lots of variation in the 8.15 x 46 chambers especially in the earlier rifles. Lots of these guns were rechambered to other stuff after liberation. 32-40 and 32 WCF were often used. I have one chambered for the 30-40 case. If it is the original chamber, it likely has a larger forcing cone designed for the German stop ring bullet (NEI makes a mold). A chamber cast would reveal all for you.
    Jim

    We already made a chamber cast and I found the NEI bullet on the net last night !

    I wanna try the two Ideal molds I have first before I get him to order the NEI mold !
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    It's been awhile but I finally got back to this rifle !

    The Lyman 170 PB bullet wasn't bad to 50 yards but when we went to 100 yards it sprayed the paper (3-5") . So I next tried my Ideal "Perfection" adjustable mold and that was no better .

    Now I realize gas check bullets ain't what you use in competition . But I just wanted to try what was on hand before buying more stuff . So I brought out some Lyman 321297's , RCBS 32-170GC 's and some of the new Ranch Dog 323-170GC . I sized all 3 in a .323" die and lubed with Thompson's Blue Angel !

    Loaded all with CCI200 primers and XMP5744 . Tried all 3 bullets with 15 , 16 and 17 grain loads . Amazingly they all liked the 17 grain loads . And they all stayed 1.5" or LESS ! Now I realize in alotta circles that is not so hot . but for a veritable first try with NO SCOPE just peep sights I thought that wasn't to bad !

    I just might try those 3 bullets with IMR4227 and possibly SR4759 .
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy bearmn56's Avatar
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    Sika,
    Super follow-up!! These guns are a hoot to shoot. Glad you are onto some winning combinations. I have been working up some 25-20 cast 89-90gr GC loads using H4227 and AA1680. (They both have somewhat similar buring rates). They have been showing some real promise. Both are cleaner burning , by the way, than the rather dirty AA5744. Weather kinda ****ty right now and full load testing is weeks away. Anyway, good job and good luck.
    Bearmn56
    Montana Territory

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold 93_marlin's Avatar
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    I'm a new guy here and I just bought a stalking rifle in this caliber. Haven't taken delivery yet and I can't wait for it to get here and start getting it to shoot.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    8.15 x 46 r

    I also enjoy a German tip-up stalking rifle in this caliber. The rifle has a slender octagonal barrel, two leaf flip up open sight, cocking indicator, sliding safety on tang, double set triggers, and a claw mount Gerard scope with 3 posts, and modest engraving. The eight groove rifling has very narrow lands, the grooves being cut with a radius on the cutter so that the groove to groove diameter is about bore diameter and the grooves are deepest adjacent to the lands. The throat is also large as many others have stated, being able to accept a 323470 bullet without the gascheck touching the 1.820" long case. The bore will accept a .305 gage pin, but a .306 will not start. The traditional 170 grain flat nose 32-40 lead bullet shoots very well, but I experienced vertical stringing until I began using 20 grains of AA2015 powder. Velocity is around 1700, sorry, don't have my chrono data at this location. This load may be too hot for some rifles.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Just stumbled on this thread while searching for 8,15 X 46R. What an interesting caliber -- and even moreso the rifle chambered for it.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Not until the 1920's did the 8,15x46R got the "Normal" added. Until then every two bit gunsmith ground his own reamer for his line of rifles. And there are more than 100 different bullets all designed for that round, again none are wrong and few are right for a peticular rifle. Most all designe was stop-ring thus the lone leade.

    If someone wants to read some German then i highly recommend this book: "Die Schützenpatrone 8,15 x 46 R und ihre Varianten " http://www.patronensammler.de/buchtipps.html

    For some light reading:
    http://www.feuerbixler.de/
    http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/home.html

    Here are some names for the cartridge:
    Click image for larger version. 

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check