Playbook for "End times" right from the Lords lips

[Alabama358]

Well, to me, this whole Rapture/Tribulation issue is a bit confusing and over dramatic.
I went and read Mathew 24 and I see that you stopped at verse 31.
Reading beyond 31 I see:

33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So, it sounds to me that the time frame that all this was to start was in that generation.
Since that generation is long gone, the whole point is moot.
No?

Another thing, if you are saved, then you are saved.
You have the free gift of salvation.
You have your spot reserved for you in heaven.

Then why all of the drama about all of that Rapture/Tribulation business?

Rizzo,

Thanks for your comments, I couldn't agree more... when your saved, you know your final destination and it is a reservation that can not be revoked.

With regards to Verse 33 and 34:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I think what Christ was saying was that "this generation" as in the generation that sees all the things that he just described (sky being parted with lightening from the east to the west, Sun & Moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the powers of the heavens being shaken and finally Christ appearing in the clouds) will not pass away.
So not the actual generation that he was sitting with and prophesying to... but the generation that witnesses the aforementioned events

I agree that there is a lot of confusion and drama wrapped up in the whole pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib doctrines being pushed out there in the world. That is why I though it might be a good spot to discuss it here in the Deep Theological Discussion room

[1hole]

.... there is a lot of confusion and drama wrapped up in the whole pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib doctrines being pushed out there in the world. That is why I though it might be a good spot to discuss it here in the Deep Theological Discussion room

Well yes, Alabama, like virtually every other meaningful view of the end times events there is a good bit of scholarly disagreement on the Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation rapture but I've not noticed much "drama and confusion."

You sound as if you know the answers; that's good. Perhaps you would (weedlessly!) straighten out our confusion and tell us the correct view of the rapture timing? And, maybe, you might (scripturally) prove your position? And, hopefully, you will explain it all without drama or pushing your own position out?

[dannyd]

I don't care when the Horn blows I Am gone. If you not going you may want to move to Europe or the Middle East because I think we are in the Area of that 1/3 thing.

[ioon44]

I you don't know the Who (Jesus) then the What and When isn't going to matter, You missed it.

[Alabama358]

Well yes, Alabama, like virtually every other meaningful view of the end times events there is a good bit of scholarly disagreement on the Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation rapture but I've not noticed much "drama and confusion."

You sound as if you know the answers; that's good. Perhaps you would (weedlessly!) straighten out our confusion and tell us the correct view of the rapture timing? And, maybe, you might (scripturally) prove your position? And, hopefully, you will explain it all without drama or pushing your own position out?

I simply ask you for 3 solid bible verses (without rhetoric about different ages and such) to help me understand your position, but I can tell by the snarkiness and lack of bible verses of your last post, you are just looking for a back and forth battle...which was not my intention or desire when I started this thread.
If you go back and re-read my post you will see most of them backed up with scripture.
Good day Sir

[Alabama358]

I you don't know the Who (Jesus) then the What and When isn't going to matter, You missed it.

Amen

[1hole]

Alabama, you surprise me. I've done my best to treat you with utmost respect and I now get snark in return; that's not right! (BUT I take no offense, you're forgiven.)

I gave a broad answer to your poorly defined Bible test question because I really don't know which approach you think is grassey. I mean, I don't know which way to answer you without fear of pushing a dramatic and/or confusing point of view! To the best of my admittedly limited Bible knowledge, the Rapture timing (pre-, mid-, post Tribulation) question really isn't all that complicated but I don't want to disappoint you and go chasing after the wrong rabbits.

Fact is, YOU raised the issue of the Rapture timing and, by your wording, implied you know the answer, but you've left us poor Bible beginners hanging in a near vacuum with nothing firm to grasp onto! Are you now ducking your chosen issue and refuse to tell us which of the three positions on the Rapture timing is correct? Why won't you be the one to start the discussion off and thereby bring clear focus to what you profess to seek? I believe it will help keep all of us all out of the worrisome crabgrass if you do that!

[dannyd]

Only thing I do know the Rapture is the event on the horizon for me: whether by death or the horn blowing. Oh my yes absence from the body present with the LORD. Going Home

[Huskerguy]

I just stumbled onto this thread. Didn't know it even existed.

I am not a Biblical apologist but have ample study materials and a couple of pastors who read Biblical text in their original languages that I can ask anything of.

The time of the rapture (word not used in the Bible) is always one for debate. When I was first saved, this was an important doctrine to me, it no longer is although many people seem to be more concerned about it these days. I can support my stand that I believe the Lord will remove true Believers from the earth with the rapture before the tribulation but I do have a few thoughts on why.

First, God has promised he will judge unbelieving man when the time is right. Only He knows the day and time but it apparently will come swiftly and without notice.

Secondly, I think it is important to recognize who and what are the object of the Tribulation. It is unbelieving man. Many times in Revelation God God tells us his wrath is on unbelieving man, not believing man. So I believer the tribulation is prepared for the unbelieving.

Thirdly, when Jesus comes to take his bride, the church with him, He will not come to earth. As noted, we will be caught up with him in the clouds. This will further throw the world into chaos when many millions are taken from the face of the earth with no explanation and further contribute to the tribulation nightmare.

Fourth, Jesus is coming back for his bride the church. That imagery is used over and over in the scriptures. Jesus is not going to abuse His Bride by having them go through torment and persecution during the Tribulation. At least that is what I believe. He loves the church as His bride and they will be spared.

Generations have been looking for Jesus's return since He spoke to the disciples about it. The apostles thought it was going to occur with them and each time in history we see an event take place, we begin to think this could be it.

Also consider this. Satan, the adversary does not know when any of this will occur but he has to be ready. The Anti-Christ is necessary in the end time events to set himself up to be worshiped in the temple. So, if Satan doesn't know when it will happen, how does he prepare the anti-Christ for that unknown time. Simply, Satan has multiple anti-Christs ready at any given time. The Bible clearly tells us there have been and will be many anti-Christs come along but eventually there will be one last one. Satan works diligently to keep the pipeline full of candidates when the time comes and he can spring this person of destruction and terror on the earth one last time.

I can add scripture to this as well, but these are a short capsule of my thoughts on the subject. There are more churches not believing in the millennial kingdom as well. I believe when Jesus returns with the new heavens and earth, Satan will be bound for a literal 1,000 years.

[dannyd]

Not teaching it anymore should get your hopes up because that makes this time the Laodicea Church. I am one of those people that believe the King James Bible is the True Word of God. That's comes from more from being a sailor more than a pew warmer. Got to see many of his wonders.

[Alabama358]

Hey Husker, Thanks for your comments

The time of the rapture (word not used in the Bible) is always one for debate.


I can add scripture to this as well, but these are a short capsule of my thoughts on the subject. There are more churches not believing in the millennial kingdom as well. I believe when Jesus returns with the new heavens and earth, Satan will be bound for a literal 1,000 years.

I 100% agree, the word rapture is a man made reference.
Would you agree that the bibles terminology would be "The Day of the Lord" or "The coming of the Son of Man in the clouds" or???

Also... which specific bible verses do you think the bible refers to when we are called to be with our Lord?

And do you personally believe that there is two different programs, One for the Hebrews/Jews and a separate one for the non-Hebrews/Greek-Gentile

The idea that there will not be a 1000 year reign of Christ... I just don't see how any pastor that has a bible could teach that.

Thanks Roll-Tide

[1hole]

Hey Husker, Thanks for your comments

Yes, very well said Husker.

I 100% agree, the word rapture is a man made reference.

Truly, rapture isn't a "man-made reference" but it wasn't, as such, in the original Greek. Our Bible was of necessity translated from Aramaic and Greek to Latin to English for us.

The point here is, scripture starts with believers suddenly being snatched up as if by a swift bird of prey, i.e., a raptor such as an eagle or hawk. Thus, in English, we read that believers at that time will suddenly be raptured meaning they, both the dead and alive, will instantly be changed to immortality and caught up in the sky when it's the right time to meet the Lord.

So, that "caught up/snatched up" IS the Rapture so it isn't a man-made doctrine without standing in scripture. After all, it's the original message, not the English words, that matter. That message was in the original Greek and finally English for us. (1 Cor 15:52-53; 2 Thess 4:13-18)

[Old School Big Bore]

My former pastor, Rev Billy Storms ThD, used to joke that he was a "pan-millenialist", meaning that "it's all gonna pan out in the end". He did that to reinforce to us that the timeline is obscured to us, and that we are supposed to be concentrating on our personal relationship with you-know-who above any internecine squabblings.
As far as which version is "best", it seems logical that the version which was translated direct from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic into modern English just may be a bit more true to the originals than one that had to go through Latin, Old German, High German, Olde and finally Middle English.
Just sayin'...Ed <><

[ioon44]

Who is you-know-who?

[1hole]

My former pastor, Rev Billy Storms ThD, used to joke that he was a "pan-millenialist", meaning that "it's all gonna pan out in the end".

Ed, I'm old and I've heard that joke from pulpits for years, always from speakers who are uninterested in the study of prophecy. However, I've read that something like 25% of scripture is, or was, prophecy when it was written - and ignorance of prophecy is exactly why so many Jews rejected Jesus - so maybe that really isn't the best approach.

Granted, prophecy shouldn't be the first topic of Bible study for new Christians but, IMHO, if we live long enough and study the Bible enough surely we should reach the point that our fellowship with God will continue to be improved if we read and study ALL of his written word, not repeatedly pound over the simplistic basics.

He did that to reinforce to us that the timeline is obscured to us, and that we are supposed to be concentrating on our personal relationship with you-know-who above any internecine squabblings.

"Internecine squabblings" puts it mildly. I've never understood why/how some folk get so angry when others don't agree, be it religion or politics, or Ford vs. Chevy. (That's not very mature is it?) But can we seriously say we're trying to get closer to God while choosing to ignore 25%, or even 2.5%, of what he says?

The time-line of days and hours is not and should be the focus of prophecy study and, thankfully, I've never known it to be true of any serious Bible student. But, IMHO, it's a vast over extension to suggest we not even try to understand the historical flow of the Bible story, including the coming end times; after all, the book of Revelation is God's holy word too and I just can't bring myself to ignore it. And it's the only book that specifically promises special blessings to those who keep its sayings in our hearts!

As far as which version is "best", it seems logical that the version which was translated direct from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic into modern English just may be a bit more true to the originals than one that had to go through Latin, Old German, High German, Olde and finally Middle English.

Well, it does seem that way. But, we have quite a few versions at hand so, at the end of the day, each of us must decide which of the currently available translations best meet that criteria.

Question: Which version(s) do you consider best? And, maybe, which current version(s) seem to be the least valuable to serious Christians ... and why??

[.429&H110]

Matthew 24 in 20 words or less?
Here's 23 words, like Cliff notes...
Not for me to paraphrase my Savior.

"13 ...and then the end shall come...
15 ...Daniel...
36 ...Knoweth no man...but my Father only.
42 ...ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Revelation 22 makes my hair stand up.

"18 For I testify unto every man that
heareth the words of the prophesy of
this book, If any man shall add unto
these things, God shall add unto him the
plagues that are written in this book.
19 And if any man shall take away
from the words of this book of this
prophesy, God shall take away his part
out of the book of life, and out of the
holy city, and from the things which
are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things
saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ
be with you all. Amen.

So ends the Bible with an excellent prayer.

[dannyd]

The Church is gone way before that: divide that KJB. But if Your staying for Tribulation thank about moving far east: Europe or Southwest Asia Just saying.

[1hole]

The Church is gone way before that: divide that KJB.

Help! What does [i]"divide that K(ing) J(ames) B(ible)" mean?

[dannyd]

Help! What does [i]"divide that K(ing) J(ames) B(ible)" mean?

These people can help you more than me. You can order their books on Amazon. Rev. Clarence Larkin, Dr. Scofield or Dr. Ruckman ( you can see him on Youtube). Divide that KJB Bible up to match who it's talking to: The Jew, Gentiles or the Church. I like Rev. Larkin the best.

[1hole]

These people can help you more than me. You can order their books on Amazon. Rev. Clarence Larkin, Dr. Scofield or Dr. Ruckman ( you can see him on Youtube). Divide that KJB Bible up to match who it's talking to: The Jew, Gentiles or the Church. I like Rev. Larkin the best.

Ah, okay! I was confused about what you meant. I think of it as dividing the unrolling of Biblical history into different ages of God's revelations, i.e., dispensions, not the Bible itself.

There is a lot of untrue crap thrown at Larkin and Schofield's illumination of the dispensations; correctly understood, those two writers make a lot of odd surface things make immediate deep sense.


Personal Trivia:

I found my (leather bound!) Schofield Bible lying on the edge of a highway in Ohio about 1985. I was gifted my treasured copy (1918 edition!) of Larson's excellent Dispensational Truth from a retired minister/Bible college teacher about 1995, shortly before his passing; it's a great book. Schofield and Larson get slandered by many "Bible experts" who obviously have not/will not actually read what they wrote.