My opinion of the .454

[44man]

My friend has had one for years and has worked thousands of loads. I have helped him and shot many rounds from his gun. Accuracy that I like has never been there. Hunting accuracy ONLY that would limit range.
I just had the opportunity to work loads for one myself. The first thing I found is that loads need to be near or at max before they will even fire and a hang fire can appear at anytime.
There is no steady progression to tight groups as the charge is changed. When you think you have a good load, the next group will be all over the place.
Even with max loads, every recoil is different. Weak one time and wrist twisting the next. Fliers are common.
My opinion it that it is the stupidity of using a SR primer! I have tried about all of them now and even the mag primers do not change recoil feel or fliers.
Moving to the .460 case, it uses a LR primer and is what the .454 should use. If I had a .454, I would buy .460 brass and cut it down.
Has anyone done this? Please post results.

[felix]

I agree with you 100 percent, 44man. The primer configuration between the current 454 case and 41 maggie case should be exchanged. ... felix

[dk17hmr]

I agree, I like my 454 alot but I hate the idea of a SMALL RIFLE primer in it.

Is it a pressure thing?, is that why the 454 has small primer pockets?
I use Remington 7 1/2 Primers seem to work very well for me.

[felix]

No, it is not a pressure thing per your thinking, but instead an abrupt force thing in the 41 Mag case pushing the boolit out of the case before consistent ignition of the powder. The bigger 454 case needs a much wider flame front to ignite the powder more consistently. The BR remmie primer typically has the hottest flame temp and that is why it works in the 454, but it provides too much force for consistent ignition using light weight boolits. The objective here is to select normal primers for a normal job in each case configuration. ... felix

[454PB]

The various histories I've read on Dick Casull's development of the .454 Casull say it IS a "pressure thing".

I too have had some adventures with hangfires and squibs, but only with slow ball powders like WC 820, AAC#9, H-110, and WW 296. For the last couple of years, I've been experimenting with Lil'Gun, and have not had a problem.

For the average handgunner/hunter, you can produce all the usable power you need for game on this continent using faster burning powders like Bluedot. In my short barreled F.A. 83, 18 grains of Bluedot will push a 335 gr. Lyman 452651 out the muzzle at 1300 fps.

There is always the option of using heavy .45 Colt loads to avoid the small rifle primers. I personally don't practice that, but you can come very close to .454 factory ammo ballistics in that manner.

[felix]

Very true. His early experiments used full loads with Unique-2400-Unique, a triplex scheme. He eventually used some concoction to stretch his cylinder holes on purpose, having the gun tied to a tractor tire for safety. If I remember correctly, the gun was entirely made of a common composition type of stainless which had only 5 cylinder holes. The stretch, after all said and done, amounted to about 0.001 at the pressure points. Bill Ruger obviously read the same stuff and was intrigued enough to make a 6 hole gun. In order to accomplish this feat, he had enough sense to obtain another cylinder metal which can do the job with like tire splitting loads as well as more sane loadings without any kind of permanent expansion. So, you can easily say the problem was "pressure" from what you have read. ... felix

[bigdog454]

I had the same problem with hangfires and squib loads, went to Winchester Small rifle primers and the problem disappeared. I don't know what primers you are using but I will no longer use ANY CCI or Federal SR primers in the 454.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont like it for a differnt reason. I just cant see what it does that a good ruger 45 wont do with cast bullets. What more do i need then a 320 at 1200 and a ruger will easily do that. Now i do own one a fa 4 5/8s. Its an extreamly accuate gun as is my buddys whos is the same as mine but ported (Yuk) It will easily shoot one inch 25 yard groups and ive shot 3 inch 100 yard groups with it when my eyes work. One of the most accurate revolvers ive ever shot in my life was a ruger srh in 454. It would shoot loads it liked under an inch at a 100 yards with a scope and boys thats good for a bolt rifle!

As to it being finiky i dont agree. Mine and the ones ive shot did well with many loads. Ive got light medium and heavy loads that shoot great in mine. Just a matter of matching the powder to the application and keeping in mind when your doing it that its not a 44mag. Maybe years of 500s and 475s have helped me choose my loads right. What it is is very primer sensitive. Id bet that 3/4s of the accuacy problems people have with it are because there the type of loader that will only buy one primer and dont believe it makes a differnce to switch them. My first primer of choise in it is the ww and i try it first. the hands down worst primer in it and one thats not worth even trying is the cci bench rest primer. The absolute only time ive seen wild velocity swings and witnessed loads that felt differnt on each shot like you are was using cci primers and 110 or 296. Next time you give one a run leave that powder on the shelf and try some 1680 if you want something slow or if your looking for a little less velocity try some 2400. Id bet your tune would change. Another thing i dont understand is you are one that preaches std. primers with 296 something i have no luck with but cant get it to light off in a 454 with a small rifle primer which is much hotter then your fed std primers are. I know you never said in your post you were using it, i just took it for granted because you use it so much. I think 110/296 causes more problems with different guns when looking for accuracy then about anything. If you dont use max loads and hot primers it doesnt work and even when it works you can find a great load that drives nails and change that charge up or down by a 1/2 grain and it goes to hell. Many times ive loaded a bunch of it when i found a great load and went back a year later to load it again and either a change in lot numbers or just a minute change in my measure and i wonder how the heck i thought it was an accurate load. I used to swear by the stuff myself but i seldom use it anymore.

Me ill take a 475 or 500 hands down over a 454 but i surely cant make a blanket statement that there inaccurate or hard to load for.

[FN in MT]

I've got a 6" FA M-83 in .454 with an auxilliary .45 Colt cylinder. I shoot far more Colts out of mine than I do Casulls. The Casull loads I did shoot were all 325 and 335 gr Cast with Rem 7 1/2 primers and Lil'Gun powder. And about 90% of those over my Oehler crono. I didn't notice any velocity swings, or differences in report or recoil. Many have suggested Lil ' Gun as THE powder for the Casull....maybe thats true.

I'm sure others here have far more experience than I with big game and cast slugs....but even a heavy .430" slug at a moderate velocity of 950 to 1050 fps shoots "through and through" on elk. And on deer one better be careful of any others behind the intended victim. I once did a very embarrasing "Two for One" shot with a .44 mag and a Keith slug.

With the .452" guns even a .45 Colt loaded to 950 or 1000 fps with the 325 or 335 gr LBT's is an amazing penetrator on big game. Thats why I shoot very few Casull loads out of my Freedom Arms. Unless the range is extended where the extra velocity helps flatten trajectory... I can't see the need for the full power Casull loads. Certainly not on close range deer and elk anyway.

Not posting this to argue with anyone...just wanted to finally ADD something around here other than asking questions.

FN in MT

[44man]

Yes guys I was using 296 and thought about trying a different powder but the gun is gone now. I was using WW primers.
The owner did not want to move down to .45 Colt loads so I didn't go that way.
No Lloyd, I will never change my opinion of std LP primers in the .44 or .45 and am willing to bet they would spark a .454 just fine although accuracy would be better with a LP mag primer or a LR. Yeah, I know rifle primers only in the .454 with top loads but that might be debatable too. My feeling is the accuracy point would be a lower load then max and a LP would hold fine.
I have shot .475 loads to the sticking point with LP mag primers and they don't even begin to flatten. Maybe less pressure then a .454 but you would think pushing a 460 gr boolit as fast as can be done would show a little sign on primers.
I have also had good accuracy in the .475 with fed 150 primers and 296 but the mag primer is more accurate. (Yes I did shoot a lot of them without a problem even with starting loads.)
I just do not think a SR primer has enough fire and cuts the versatility of the cartridge too much. Something that works with only one primer or a faster powder is too iffy.
I still think cut down .460 brass would work much better. I have not come up with a valid reason for the SR primer at all.
Why did they do that?

[JFE]

My understanding is that the 454 was originally designed for LP primers but Casull found that primer pockets were expanding to easily. Casull then made packs of small steel rings available that were fitted in LP primer pockets in order to fit SR primers. Later cases were specifically made to fit SR primers. Fitting a SR primer results in a stronger case head and resists expansion under high pressure.

[felix]

Now, that would make sense, but at the demise of better ignition. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree on the pressure thing. I think its an overkill but youve got to keep in mind that the first FA 454 loads were some extreamly high pressure loads some used duplex and triplex loads that were in my opinion about insane. I think if a guy kept in under 50000 youd never go lacking with a large pistol mag primer. What i have found though is that if the 454 needs to be run it needs heavy bullets. If you want 45 colt ballistics leave it at home and take a 45 colt. My light load is a 350 at 1400 fps out of a 4 5/8s gun. As to lil gun. I dont trust it. It gives wierd pressure signs and goes from mild to wild with a small increase in charge weight. It reminds me of blue dot in that respect. It also is very hard on forcing cones with top end loads and now FA wont even warantee a gun thats used it. The only thing i use lilgun for anymore is 32 mag 3220 and 50 beowulf loads in guns that have no forcing cone. It can be accurate and can produce amazing velocitys but its a more finiky powder to load for then even 110 is. Ive been playing some with 297 and it shows promise but still suffers from the same problems as 110. It needs to be run at top end velocitys or suffers from pour ignition. If i had to pick one powder to do it all in the 454 believe it or not it would be good old 2400. It can be down loaded accurately and can push a bullet as fast as needed on the top end for any game animal. Funny me defending the 454. A few years ago i would have been on your side but ive played enough with it to realize it aint a bad round if a guy runs it right. Like i said it will never replace my 475 or 500s but i doubt id ever part with it.

[9.3X62AL]

No, it is not a pressure thing per your thinking, but instead an abrupt force thing in the 41 Mag case pushing the boolit out of the case before consistent ignition of the powder. The bigger 454 case needs a much wider flame front to ignite the powder more consistently. The BR remmie primer typically has the hottest flame temp and that is why it works in the 454, but it provides too much force for consistent ignition using light weight boolits. The objective here is to select normal primers for a normal job in each case configuration. ... felix

Felix--

That said, how does the 45 ACP do such good work with a shorter case and the same LP primer? Does the faster powder--in smaller amounts--in a smaller space ignite more readily/quickly and overcome the bullet push-out effect? 41 Mag bullets are roll-crimped, 45 ACP bullets go practically uncrimped. Help me out here, something isn't adding up.

[FN in MT]

Lloyd.......Your absolutely right about 2400. I forgot to mention it as it did give me a few very accurate mid range loads. Then again so did 10 grs of Unique and a 270 gr Keith SWC.

FN in MT

[Lloyd Smale]

As usuall FN im not much on the theroy stuff i just post on what ive experienced myself with my guns.

[felix]

Yes, Al, absolutely correct. You always want ignition speed of be ahead of the push-out speed. Day to day accuracy requires it as a minimum spec for same. A taper crimp always has a better hold than a roll crimp on the boolit when everything is kosher in terms of fit. That is why 44man's elephant loads require visualizing the lube grooves after seating, and then have just enough crimp to maintain the same overall length on all rounds in the cylinder. In a lever gun, that amount of crimp won't be ever needed, but just enough to keep the boolit from going into the case instead of out of the case. I would prefer all crimp grooves to be square like folks like lube grooves. Also, that crimp groove would be square and shallow to mate to the factory crimp die when necessary for insane loads. ... felix

[454PB]

To me, everything posted thus far is true. The .454 is a highbred, and not a good round for those that are not willing to put up with it's peculiarities. Though I have experimented with it extensively in my three revolvers and rifle, I certainly don't have all the answers. Like Lloyd, I only know what has and hasn't worked for me. As to forcing cone erosion, I have not seen it yet, nor any flame cutting of the top strap that I've seen in other high intensity revolver cartridges.

Lloyd, where did you get the information on the use of Lil'Gun voiding the warranty on Freedom Arms revolvers?

I know that using .45 Colt brass in their .454 cylinder voids the warranty, but I hadn't heard about the Lil'Gun.

[shotman]

check the flash hole in the brass I found you need to drill them out on a win case

[Lloyd Smale]

on another forum and if i remember it was right out of bob bakers post. If you conserned and really want to keep using it id give them a call and ask for yourself.

To me, everything posted thus far is true. The .454 is a highbred, and not a good round for those that are not willing to put up with it's peculiarities. Though I have experimented with it extensively in my three revolvers and rifle, I certainly don't have all the answers. Like Lloyd, I only know what has and hasn't worked for me. As to forcing cone erosion, I have not seen it yet, nor any flame cutting of the top strap that I've seen in other high intensity revolver cartridges.

Lloyd, where did you get the information on the use of Lil'Gun voiding the warranty on Freedom Arms revolvers?

I know that using .45 Colt brass in their .454 cylinder voids the warranty, but I hadn't heard about the Lil'Gun.