98 mauser in 30-30 win

[slowfire]

Has anyone chambered a 98 in 30-30? I thought 30-30 cartridge would be as close to an ideal .30 cal. cast bullet cartridge as I can get without going exotic I have a 98 with a home made feed ramp that seems to work until the little larger rim stops it. The bolt face would have to be opened up a smidgen. My concern is the web of the 30-30 that I sectioned is not quit as deep as a the 308 that I sectioned. So I am wondering if the case will have enough support ?The 30-30 is supposed to headspace on the rim,but I in a 98 it would headspace on the shoulder. This would be a bench rest gun so a magazine would not be used anyway. I have the actions and .30 barrels on hand and would be a way of doing a bit of cast bullet experimentation at low cost. Not going to Arizona this winter ,Covid's keeping me home in the shop. So I am looking for a project.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

An interesting idea and project. I have not done this, but see no reason why it couldn't be done with a little tinkering. Addressing your concern about the .30-30 case being supported, except for the extractor purchase on the rim, it would be fully supported. There is no problem with actions such as the Savage 340 that use the .30-30.

Where I do see a little problem is that the '98 is designed specifically to feed from the magazine so that the controlled feed extractor picks up the cartridge as it feeds and stays with it until ejection. So, considering that you're saying the rifle would be used in bench rest only and a magazine not needed, you have to figure a way to overcome the controlled feed when using it as a single shot as if you inserted a cartridge into the chamber and closed the '98's bolt it's going to just bang against the rear of the cartridge case and likely not ride over the rim.

There is a technique to loading single rounds in a '98 without the magazine which involves pressing inward on the rear of the extractor's long built-in spring, but it would be a gigantic hassle to do it for every round. Probably the biggest problem is the extractor, but you might thin and shape it to resemble that of a Win. '94 to snap over the rim as it seats in the chamber. How long this would last without breaking is anyone's guess. Might need replaced periodically, but maybe never.

'98s have been chambered for almost every imaginable cartridge including rimmed, but if you intend to insert the cartridges one at a time there is no feed problem. Opening the bolt's face is no problem. So, all in all, as presented I think the project is doable. To make a standard length '98 into a magazine feeder would be much more difficult as the .30-30 is much shorter than the standard Mauser cartridges like 7mm & 8mm and you might run into feed rail and follower modification problems.

Earlier this year I became interested in bolt action .30-30s due to the desire to shoot pointed bullets in that cartridge, but found it easier to buy a Savage 340 and a Stevens 325 to play with rather than to modify a Mauser.

You could seek advice from Texas by God who made .30-30 work with a small ring Mauser.

DG

[mike britton]

Why not go with a 7.62-39?
Ballistics are close to the .30-30 and it is a rimless cartridge. Sure, you can make a .30-30 work on the bolt face and modify the extractor to pull the rim, but you still face the issue of making a rimmed cartridge work in a magazine designed for a rimless cartridge.
If you are sold on the .30-30 consider using a #4 Mk1 SMLE British Enfield. Receiver and action both designed around a rimmed cartridge.
I have toyed with the idea of a .38-55 SMLE for some time, I think the .30-30 could also be a good candidate.

[beshears]

How about the 30 Remington? Remington's answer to 30-30 and rimless. Can be made from 30-30 brass.

[Larry Gibson]

My concern is the web of the 30-30 that I sectioned is not quit as deep as a the 308 that I sectioned. So I am wondering if the case will have enough support ?

If the barrel is bumped up against the inner shoulder of the M98 action, as it should be, there is sufficient support. I suggest a 14" twist barrel if cast bullets up through 180 - 190 gr are going to be used.

As to the 30-30 cartridge being "ideal" (?) for cast I thought that also but I've not been able to prove that. I suggest a 30x57 cartridge for use in the Mauser M98 as no action or bolt face alteration is needed. The cases are easily formed from 30-06 and have the longer '06/30-30 length neck. Dies are simply standard '06 dies shortened. Case capacity equals the 308W which is a favorite CBA cartridge and all the load data for the 308W is applicable. The 14" twist barrel is recommended also or even a 16" twist barrel if the bullets are 1" or less in length. That includes such bullets as the 311041, 30 XCB, etc.

Here's all the cast bullet 30 cal cartridges i use in Mausers; the 30x57 is the middle one:

Attachment 273157

[John Taylor]

Winchester did their model 70 in 30-30. The chamber end of the barrel will need to be extended past the shoulder a bit and relieved for the lip on the bolt to get proper headspace. Also it will need to be cut to clear the extractor. If you get a chance to look at a model 70 in 30-30 you can see what needs to be done.

[slowfire]

Thanks for the impute guy's I think the feeding problem is going to be OK . The smaller case like the 30 rem and 7.62x39 would create additional challenges. Larry to chamber your 30X57 did you use a spesal reamer or a 30-06 reamer? In the picture of the 5 cartridges in your post #5,I am assuming the cartridge to the left of the 30X57 is a .308 but the far left has me intrigued? I like the idea of a longer neck like 30-30 ,or your 30X57. I have a .308 reamer on hand but was hoping for less case capacity. My thinking is a 30-30 reamer might be more useful for other projects.

[DonHowe]

As an experiment I chucked a .30-30case in the drill press and using a file reduced the rim to .473". Ii then seated a lead bullet for a dummy round. When tried from the magazine in a Spanish 1916 action the round rose as it should with the rim slipping right behind the extractor. Something to think about.

Another angle I have toyed with: if more readily available the .225 Winchester case necked up to .30 would be a nice size and come with the correct rim diameter for a Mauser bolt face.

[Texas by God]

You speak of the single shot adapter; I'm going to assume that it sits low enough for the controlled feed to work. The .473" case head family would be the easiest to work with for sure. .30 BR up through the rounds pictured above would all work I would think. The 30-30 would require some extractor claw work, but as long as the controlled feed is maintained I believe it would work as well.
Making a smaller rim cartridge work such as .30 Remington or 7.62x39 would involve adding to the extractor- doable but more work. Please post pics as you go!
I didnt know the model 70 was offered in 30-30, but the model 54 was and I've always wanted one. The 1916 Oviedo that I converted to 30-30 worked out great, but I may have just got lucky.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[faraim]

Slowfire, a m98 has 2 breech designs. The most common has a flat back face and butts up against the inner c ring inside the receiver. A rimmed case would have to extend back far enough for the extractor to sit over the rim. This would entail the case to headspace on the shoulder. Since the case was designed to headspace on the rim, with the rim seated flat against the back of the barrel, the inner configuration of the case might not have solid brass where the case is sticking out of the barrel. The second breech design is the Yougoslav, Serbian, or Safety Breech. It has a rounded bead of metal that protrudes through the c ring and covers the cartridge case. In a m98 I believe the latter would be better for a rimmed case. Or, you could use a 93, 95, or 96 Mauser and do away with the inner c ring and allow the case to fit deeply and it's rim to contact the back of the barrel. You may be able to see with the standard breech in the left photo the bolt is slightly farther away from the barrel face than the safety breech on the right. I'd want that case to be as deep in the chamber as possible. Good luck.

[faraim]

I was able to locate these drawings that explain the breeching better than my feeble attempts. Otteson refers to the safety breech as the raised lip breech.

[samari46]

Interesting concept using a 98 action for the 30-30. if your not adverse to turning down the rims to .473 you might get away using the Argentine 1891 action set up as a single shot. You could find a beater 1891 rifle and go from there. Only problem is that there are no after market triggers, but the original trigger could be worked over to get a nice crisp two stage let off. Frank

[Larry Gibson]

......... Larry to chamber your 30X57 did you use a spesal reamer or a 30-06 reamer? In the picture of the 5 cartridges in your post #5,I am assuming the cartridge to the left of the 30X57 is a .308 but the far left has me intrigued? I like the idea of a longer neck like 30-30 ,or your 30X57. I have a .308 reamer on hand but was hoping for less case capacity. My thinking is a 30-30 reamer might be more useful for other projects.

That's another good thing with the 30x57 is a standard 30-06 or a match 30-06 reamer is used. The standard full, length and/or neck size dies along with the seater die can easily be shortened .288". Then form three cases from '06 cases and trim the necks so the neck length is .005 +/- the length of the neck on the finish reamer. The standard 30-06 finish reamer is used to short chamber the barrel using those three formed cases to headspace. Finish ream so you can feel a slight "crush" fit of the bolt on the cases just as the bolt is fully closed. That way you have a perfect fit of the formed/full length sized case to the chamber. Very easy and the least expensive to do.

The cartridges in the photo left to right are;

308 CBC (Cast Bullet Cartridge)
308W
30x57
30x60 XCB
30-06

Attachment 273219

The 308 CBC was my own creation back in the early '80s. I had a M93 Mauser action that had already been sporterized, rebarreled to 308W and converted to cock on opening. I had shot the barrel out so having a new 2 groove '03A3 barrel I came up with the idea of the 308 CBA. It was the 308W/7.62 case with the shoulder set back in shortened 308W dies giving an '06 length neck. The 2 groove '03A3 barrel was touted by a well respected cast bullet expert as "just the ticket" for the 311284 cast bullet as the 2 grooves would better grasp the bullet preventing "stripping" of the cast bullet in the rifling and loss of accuracy. Thus I cogitated that a case capacity giving 100% load density with 4895 to push the 311284 to 2100 - 2200 fps would equal the 30-40 Gvmt cartridge and be the "perfect" cast bullet cartridge. I shortened a .308W FL die setting back the shoulder until the formed case held the calculated amount of 4895 to the base of the neck. The case OAL ended up right at 2.00" with the '06 length neck. Thus I had the barrel installed on the M93 Action with the barrel shortened at both ends to 22", short chambered with a .308W reamer with a tight neck to headspace on the shortened case with the neck cut back to 308W length. Then just the chamber neck was lengthened with a standard 30-06 finish reamer. The formed cases with the '06 length neck were neck turned to give a slip fit into the chamber with a .311 sized 311284 bullet seated. All seemed perfect to give excellent accuracy at 2100 - 2200 fps.......

Didn't work out that way. First of all considerable alteration to the feed rails of the Mauser action were required for it to feed reliably. Then, as I didn't understand about RPM back then, I found accuracy was just as horrible with the 311284 and other cast bullets used back then as they were in a standard 2 groove M1903A3 in 30-06. I got absolutely no improvement in accuracy above 1950 fps (yes I had an Oehler chronograph back then) over that of the standard 30-06 cartridge with any cast bullet. There wasn't even much difference in the amount of any powder used to get pretty close to the same velocities. The Idea was a bust simply because i had no idea of the RPM Threshold back then. If I had then understood about the RPM Threshold that cartridge in a 14" twist barrel would have been successful. However, other than the longer '06 length neck, I seriously doubt it would prove to be any better than a standard .308W cartridge. I still have the rifle and do still shoot it with cast bullets but it really is no better than any 308W in a 10" twist barrel.

Later, understanding the feeding requirements of most milsurp Mauser actions, the RPM Threshold and what it really takes for higher velocity cast bullet shooting the 30x57 and the 30x60 XCB in 14 - 16" twist barrels have proven to be the best cartridges.

BTW; some get all excited and expect the world to end if a 308W may be inadvertently fired in a 30x57 chamber. All that will happen, if it can be chambered, is the case will simply fire form and the psi will be less than if that cartridge were fired in a 308W chamber. Also, none of the other Mauser cartridges [6.5, 7mm, 8mm, etc.] will chamber because the 30x57 shoulder is set back. As mentioned in the earlier post the 30x57 has essentially the same case capacity as the 308W so all load data [jacketed and cast bullets] can be used, especially with the M98 action.

[faraim]

Larry, can you explain, or provide a link to an explanation of your rpm theory. Thanks.

[Drm50]

I never had a Win M70 in 30/30 but I had a 54. It had been abused and had poor bore. Shot poorly but functioned fine. I never got another one. I’ve had several Savage 340series in 30/30 and a Rem 788 back in 60s. I had no interest in them at the time and years later when I was fooling with light bullets in 30/30 they were premium priced.
My thoughts on hot rodding 30/30 with light bullets was going to involve forming 30/30 brass from 375Win. The weak link in 30/30 is case. I don’t know about cast shooting but if I was doing it I would do it on a 788 action. I did shoot a lot a the 100gr plinkers in all the 30/30s, but they are 1/2 jackets. A few years ago I shot 77gr RN cast for 32acp and sized to .310” out of Marlin lever and micro groove. Was only cranking 1200-1250 FPS and got good accuracy to 40yds, after that group opened up considerably.

[rockrat]

I thought about converting a Rem 700 single shot action to 30-30, but I was just going to turn the rims on the brass, to match the .473" boltface of the action

[ebb]

There is a guy over at Benchrest Central that has been shooting bench rest matches with a 30/30 with good success. If i remember correctly he cuts off the rim and cuts an extractor groove in its place. This a common practice with BR shooters that want to shoot a 6mm 7mm or 30BR case and have a rifle that has a bolt set up for the PPC case. They make a cutter that does all the cutting at one time. If you search or ask over there You can see how they do it and see if it will work for chambering a 30/30 in a 98 action. I am no expert but i think the rim will be the biggest problem.

[ebb]

Sorry rock rat i think we were typing at the same time.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, can you explain, or provide a link to an explanation of your rpm theory. Thanks.

A "theory" is a plausible concept that has not been proven. The RPM Threshold is not a "theory" as it has been proven. It has been proven not only by me but by most every rifle cast bullet shooter attempting to get jacketed bullet velocities with cast bullets in common barrel twists found in most cartridges, usually in the 7 to 12" twist rates. Here are several threads the first of which will give you the basic concept. A "search" will give you others.

RPM Threshold barrel twist/velocity chart (gunloads.com)

RPM Test; a tale with three twists (gunloads.com)

RPM Test; a tale of three twists, Chapter 2 (gunloads.com)

NOE 30 XCB, 30x60 XCB, 600 yards (gunloads.com)

[john.k]

I see mention of reworking 30/30 cases to rimless.....I think this is a dangerous practice,and there have been many examples of rimmed cases reworked to rimless failing thru the extraction groove .