Want a 30/223

[Stephen Cohen]

I also want to deep chamber a 300 blackout and try out 30 apache. I was kicking around the idea of doing it to a ruger american and putting it in a chassis that would use the aics pattern mags to get the extra mag length needed. But truthfully I'd rather have a 1 in 10 twist barrel than the 1 in 8 the blackout barrels have.

The longer magazine was one of the reasons I consider using my Savage 110 as it is a 222 Rem built on a long action, I dislike seating bullet into good usable power space. Regards Stephen

[rockrat]

And to really throw a wrench into the works, you could run the 300 BO reamer in deep enough to use 204 Ruger brass. Kind of like a 300/204 Ruger. Get you close to a x39 but with a 223 boltface.

[Lloyd Smale]

i just built a 300 ham'r ar15. its about identical to a 7.62x40WT Problem with the full sized case in a ar is your seating bullets so deep in the powder space that your gaining nothing over the slightly cut down versions. It will run power wise right with a 6.8, 762x39 or 6.5 grendel and do it with less powder. Not quite as flat shooting as the grendel but out to 200 yard it on paper is as powerful. A bolt gun would let you seat the bullets out a bit father on a full length case and get a small increase in power. i do have an american in 300 bo. Its fun but its really kind of silly. I could have bought the exact same gun in 308 or 243 and been in a different league. The ideal of the grendel 6.8 300 ham'r ect was to get the most power out of an ar15. With a bolt gun your open to many more more powerful rounds in a short action. Now i can see this as a project for a mini mauser to do the same thing I try to do in ars. Get the most effective deer round that will fit in it. But i wouldnt waste the money doing it on a standard short action. I always wanted a 25/223 on a mini mauser because i love 25 cal guns. But today you can get the 6.5 grendel in it and its just a better round period. Now that the 300 hamr and the 762x40 are commercialized there a no brainer if you want a 30 cal 223 based round. You can buy brass if you dont want to bother making it and dont have to have custom dies made and theres load data much easier to find. Might gain 50 fps with the full length version but is it worth the downsides. then you run into selling a gun down the road that factory ammo doesnt exist for.

[jonp]

Lloyd, do you think the extra 250-300fps of the Ham'r over the BO will make a practical difference? I've read that the BO is a 200yrd whitetail gun and the Ham'r, if you do the drop of 40in right, a 400yrd whitetail having 700lbs at that range. Do you think that is accurate?

[dverna]

I agree with Lloyd. The project makes does not make sense in a 110 action. Chamber it in .308 if you want a .30 cal and download the .308. I know it is a less "efficient" cartridge for reduced loads but it will take a long time to recoup the savings in powder...maybe never?
Even with powder at $50/lb, if you save 4 gr per round, it will require firing over 5000 rounds to save $150 .

Using "the load" of 13 gr of Red Dot (Promo) in the .308 requires no fillers and gives 1500 fps with a 150-170 gr cast bullet for cheap practice if saving money is a goal (over 500 rounds/lb). You can load the .308 up for game or target shooting over 200 yards as needed. It seems the smaller capacity .30's offer no advantage over the .308 unless it needs to fit a small action; and then the price is more expensive brass or modifying brass. I wonder what people buying .300 BO's in standard bolt actions are thinking.

[Warhawk]

i just built a 300 ham'r ar15. its about identical to a 7.62x40WT Problem with the full sized case in a ar is your seating bullets so deep in the powder space that your gaining nothing over the slightly cut down versions. It will run power wise right with a 6.8, 762x39 or 6.5 grendel and do it with less powder. Not quite as flat shooting as the grendel but out to 200 yard it on paper is as powerful. A bolt gun would let you seat the bullets out a bit father on a full length case and get a small increase in power. i do have an american in 300 bo. Its fun but its really kind of silly. I could have bought the exact same gun in 308 or 243 and been in a different league. The ideal of the grendel 6.8 300 ham'r ect was to get the most power out of an ar15. With a bolt gun your open to many more more powerful rounds in a short action. Now i can see this as a project for a mini mauser to do the same thing I try to do in ars. Get the most effective deer round that will fit in it. But i wouldnt waste the money doing it on a standard short action. I always wanted a 25/223 on a mini mauser because i love 25 cal guns. But today you can get the 6.5 grendel in it and its just a better round period. Now that the 300 hamr and the 762x40 are commercialized there a no brainer if you want a 30 cal 223 based round. You can buy brass if you dont want to bother making it and dont have to have custom dies made and theres load data much easier to find. Might gain 50 fps with the full length version but is it worth the downsides. then you run into selling a gun down the road that factory ammo doesnt exist for.

I've got a couple of ARs in 300 Blackout, and recently bought a Wilson barrel in 300 HAM'R. Still waiting on a couple of parts to complete the HAM'R. I'm thinking about selling a 16 inch 300BO upper and limiting the 300 BO to short barreled (under 16") stuff and the 16 inch gun will be the HAM'R. For safety's sake if nothing else.

[Stephen Cohen]

I agree with dverna to a point, I only use the 110 action as it is available and doing nothing in my safe, The B/O really shines in a single shot or AR which sadly are very hard to license in our socialist Country, something I hope your guys never have to experience. Yes a 308 loaded down would be a more sensible alternative but that has never stopped me doing my own thing just for the grin factor. I know guys who have bolt action B/Os and just love them so its horses for courses so to speak. But dverna has given me something to think on and that is why I love this group. Regards Stephen

[Stephen Cohen]

And to really throw a wrench into the works, you could run the 300 BO reamer in deep enough to use 204 Ruger brass. Kind of like a 300/223 Ackley improved. Get you close to a x39 but with a 223 boltface.

You had to do to tell me that, now my minds in a spin. Regards Stephen

[rockrat]

LOL Look at it this way, if it doesn't work out, you can always cut off the back of the barrel and just turn it back into a 300 BO. I am getting ready to run a 223 AI reamer in deep and use 204 Ruger brass, to make a 223 Super AI. If it doesn't perform as I expect, I can just cut off the back of the barrel and re-thread it and turn it into something else, or just run a 22-250 reamer in it and stick it on another action.

Besides, whats the fun in shooting an ordinary cartridge vs. one you dream up????

[Hahndorf1874]

In1974 a mate built a .30/222 on a martini, he ran 168gnBT& 155gnBT, at around 2000fps.25/27gns of 748Win. It shot sub MOA @ 200yds.I now own it and use it to shoot cast,9.5 gns Unique ,150 gn pill shoots around 1” @ 97 yds. Didn’t bother with an extractor you can pull the fired case out with your nail,don’t chew them!! Fun round the .30/223 should be a winner.

Cheers Mal in au.

[Stephen Cohen]

Wildcats and wild ideas where would we be without them. I have already started work on a 30/ 357 Maximum again use B/O reamer and loading dies perhaps I should go a little deeper and use 5.6x50 brass. The insanity of it all. Regards Stephen

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd, do you think the extra 250-300fps of the Ham'r over the BO will make a practical difference? I've read that the BO is a 200yrd whitetail gun and the Ham'r, if you do the drop of 40in right, a 400yrd whitetail having 700lbs at that range. Do you think that is accurate?

well that 200-300 fps is as much or more differnt then comparing an 06 to a 300 win mag and if your talking like in some loads 3-400 differnt its like comparing a 308 to a 300 mag or an o6 to a 300 wby. So yes it believe its a big step up. I shot a half a dozen deer 2 years ago with my 16 in bo. All from 100-200 yards. Only one made it to the edge of the field and that was the one that was the closest. Internal damage on even the 200 yard shot was impressive (barnes 110tssx) That said it felt more like a stunt then anything else. I would classify the 300 bo as a legit 100 yard deer and pig gun. Maybe a bit more if your a good shot and pick your shots. Its not for the poke and hope type unless you love tracking deer. Reality is its not much more then a 30 carbine. The 300 fps the hamr gives steps it up to 3030 power levels and maybe even a bit more. It will push a 125 to 2500 fps and being a spitzer its going to fly much better then the 3030. What it does is make it a real legit 200 yard round. To be totaly honest if faced with something at 300 id MUCH rather have my grendel if im carrying an ar15. Its faster and shoots bullets with much better bc's. Anything further then that is going to walk away till tomorrow. To me what this is is a whitetail gun like the grendel. Ill probably shoot a couple cast bullets to see how it does but 99 percent of what will be shot in it is jacketed. If i want to shoot cast ive got 3 300bos to do that. in reality the 300hamr is going to be about identical on game to a 6.8, 762x39 and the grendel at 200 yards. Like i said any futher and the bc of the grendel kicks all of there buts.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with Lloyd. The project makes does not make sense in a 110 action. Chamber it in .308 if you want a .30 cal and download the .308. I know it is a less "efficient" cartridge for reduced loads but it will take a long time to recoup the savings in powder...maybe never?
Even with powder at $50/lb, if you save 4 gr per round, it will require firing over 5000 rounds to save $150 .

Using "the load" of 13 gr of Red Dot (Promo) in the .308 requires no fillers and gives 1500 fps with a 150-170 gr cast bullet for cheap practice if saving money is a goal (over 500 rounds/lb). You can load the .308 up for game or target shooting over 200 yards as needed. It seems the smaller capacity .30's offer no advantage over the .308 unless it needs to fit a small action; and then the price is more expensive brass or modifying brass. I wonder what people buying .300 BO's in standard bolt actions are thinking.

ive shot a pile of 308s shooting cast 150s with 9 grains of unique no filler and got great accuracy. Do the same with 3030s using 7 grains. I bought my america bo because all it is is a cast bullet gun. Ill never take it deer hunting. Most of what i shoot in it is a 130 cast pushed by 4.5 grains of unique with a can on it. What id does for me is lets me shoot sub sonic without using those 200 plus grain bullets and i dont need to fart with trying to get it to run an action. Its about as quiet as a pellet gun and more accurate at even a 100 yards then you would believe. Ill put it this way. In a pinch or a shtf situation i would be very confindent taking head shots on whitetail at a 100 yards with it. What i do is sight it in at 50 yards with cast suppressed loads and have tape on the stock telling me scope adjustments for 100 yard jacketed full power and 100 yard suppressed. At 50 yards they shoot close enough together that it doesnt matter. My grandkids get a kick out of shooting it suppressed like that. No recoil, like i said noise about like a pellet gun but it smacks steal targets with MUCH more athourity then a 22 would and you can actually hear it smacking the steel. Now if i bought the gun for whitetail hunting it would have been in 6.5 grendel to have a companion rifle to my ar. Truth be told if i didnt have a safe full of bigger guns and 2 308s it would have been a 308.

[Lloyd Smale]

And to really throw a wrench into the works, you could run the 300 BO reamer in deep enough to use 204 Ruger brass. Kind of like a 300/223 Ackley improved. Get you close to a x39 but with a 223 boltface.

why would you want to when the ham'r and the 7.62x40WT allready get you there and are comercialy made. Add to that in a pinch like with the black out you can make brass from cheap or even free 556 brass. Problem you run into with full lenght 223 brass is you have to seat the bullet deaper in it to fit in a magazine so you gain nothing. Id bet most chamber reamers are set up for ars and will cut a similar length chamber. So to gain anything youd have to have a reamer made. Even with the slightly cut back ham'r brass you will not get a bullet like the 110 barnes to seat deap enough in a full power charge using powders like 1680 and cfe blk. I tried yesterday and it was so compressed the round swelled and wouldnt chamber. Even the 125 sst barely worked. then with long pointy bullets like that to get them deap enough to run your bullet is so deep that your into the oglive of the bullet and its a jam waiting to happen.

Before id fart with 204 brass id look at necking up the grendel. Again brass can be bought. But truth be told the 6.5 grendel is already a better round then anything mentioned here. Theres also the 30 rem. I scratch my head why that round didnt take off like a moon rocket. I also searched around buy found little on a other idea i had. A 50 beo necked to 30 cal. Id bet that one would scare a 308. But the problem with it and all wildcat guns is youd best figure on keeping them till they plant you in the ground. Dont know about where you live but around here if you cant by ammo at walmart or the guns shop nobodys going to touch it. Even the 300 ham'r is pushing that envelope. Its the main reason the black out makes a bit more sense as does the grendel. I think 20 years from now ill still be able to get bo and grendel brass but id bet im making my ham'r brass by then and about couldnt get 20 bucks for the barrel. Same with the 6.8. Now theres a round that makes me shake my head. Less powerful then a 30 rem harder to find bullets for. Limited to bullets with POOR BC's so its less effective at both short and long range and it lives and the 30 rem dies?????? But wildcats?? I saw the reasoning back in the 60s and 70s when there was voids to fill. But today to do it when theres already something better just doesnt make sense to me.

[popper]

I experimented with Lee FL die few yrs back, worked but not for AR as case head is not fully supported. Why not just go for 32 or 35 cal - get heavier bullet with good powder space. I can push 150gr gold dot to 2100 out of 18" 1:10 BO carbine, plenty for deer. Or 2400 with 308 carbine. And 60% more powder!
This is PB 145gr cast 2100 chronyd @ 100 and the bases were not flat (experiment), thought about pushing the reamer in farther but I have a 308W I can use.

[PB234]

I have the loading info from a fellow who was able to get 5 rounds touching at 100 yards using cast out of a CZ 7.62x39 527 carbine. PM if you want it. If you want something really trim seek a 527 youth carbine on the used market.

My thoughts is a wildcat is a waste of time and money unless you just want to tinker. So many excellent factory rifles can produce the same or better results for a fraction of he cost/time and when you want to sell people tend more willing to buy rather than a wildcat.

Unlikely you do better than the CZ. If you get a good used one the resale will be close to what you paid than something you built probably hard to sell. Plus you can buy factory ammo if necessary.

The problem with the 527 is you may end up wanting more examples. Buy a detachable scope base and easily move the scope from 527 to 527 saving $. If you want a really light scope check out the SWFA Ultra Lights. I wish they had an adjustable parallax.

[Lloyd Smale]

I've got a couple of ARs in 300 Blackout, and recently bought a Wilson barrel in 300 HAM'R. Still waiting on a couple of parts to complete the HAM'R. I'm thinking about selling a 16 inch 300BO upper and limiting the 300 BO to short barreled (under 16") stuff and the 16 inch gun will be the HAM'R. For safety's sake if nothing else.

wish i could find a 10.5 hammer upper or barrel. Id like to build a smaller ham'r. Even if its nots as efficient as a bo in a short barrel it still would be more powerful. Plus ar pistols are just a hoot to shoot cast out of.

[rockrat]

Necking up the Grendel will get you the 30 major. Kind of a 7.62 x 39 Ackley Improved. I think the fellow is thinking of doing what he is, is because he already has the reamer and dies, so he doesn't have to pony up the $$ for another reamer or dies. I suggested what I did because he would only need 204 Ruger brass (or 222 mag) to try what he is dreaming up. Otherwise, cheap 223/5.56 brass would be the way to go.
I converted my 300 BO to 30 Apache, but its in a bolt gun, so I don't have to worry about mag length. I have thought about running the Apache reamer in a bit farther and use 204 Ruger brass, but haven't yet, too many other things to tinker with.
Have a 30/357 max I played with a couple of decades ago, used a 30-30 length neck. Ended up shooting it in IHMSA to good effect.

[ubetcha]

.3otcu

Yup, if the rest of the case dimensions are the same except the bullet diameter, then instead of a 223 case necked up to 7mm to make the 7TCU, it's necked to 30cal. Some call it a 30TCU, or 30/223, or was it also referred to the 30 Apache?

[rockrat]

I think the 30 tcu has a different shoulder angle and not as much taper to the case, more like an Ackley Improved design.