Lets talk about the .38/44

[Cattleman406]

So I'm a longtime listener and first time caller here. Ive been a reloader since my grandpa gave me a rifle when I was a teenager and taught me how to roll my own for it, so that gives me around a decade of experience in the field I suppose.
So I'm pretty low on .357 mag brass, but currently dont have a shortage of .38 spec. Ive got several thousand 38 plinkers sitting on the shelf and would like to use the remainder of my projectiles to make some (near) 357 strength rounds to be exclusively shot from a 357 pistol and rifle (i do not own a 38 special firearm.) I figured on doing this by replicating the classic Keith 38/44 load, utilizing the old standby 2400 and 158g LSWC.
The projectiles in question are SNS cast 158 LSWCs, with an advertised BH of 15-16. So here's my questions:
Being that you pretty well wont find data for the 38/44 load, ive been going off of forum posts, personal acquaintances and of course the Keith manuals. It seems to me that if I start at 11 grains of 2400, this should give me acceptable speed while keeping leading to a minimum and keeping pressures within reason. I may work it up from there, or i may not if im satisfied with it. Has anyone here had experience with this specific load? I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures here.

[kungfustyle]

You need to find someone with quickloads to guide you down the right path with this one. Lyman's 50th lists 8.3g as a max for the 38 special and 8.8 as a max at +p range. That's all that brass is designed to take. You may want to just pick up some 357 brass if you want more umph. http://gardnerscache.com/357_magnum.html great place to start. Good luck.

[Larry Gibson]

Many, many years ago there was a shortage of 357 brass also. As a budding LEO I also had a lot of 38 SPL cases so following the advise of Thompson, Skeeter and others I used 38/44 loads oin my BH and Colt Trooper. The 38 SPL cases had no problems with the psi's of those 38/44 level loads. No experience with that particular bullet. Have shot 38/44 loads in 38 SPL cases (mostly R-P & Winchester) for 50+ years with 160 gr 358156 and 150 gr 358477s. I have pressure tested the loads along with pressure testing 170 & 180 gr cast in 38 SPL cases over 2400.

Without knowing the seating depth of that bullet based on the pressure test results of the above I'd say 11 - 12 gr of 2400 will get you into the 26 - 28,000 psi range which is 38/44 range. As to "leading" that will depend on the lube used mostly since they are commercial cast bullets. If they lead giving them a light coat of LLA and letting it thoroughly dry before loading can, many times, eliminate the leading.

[rintinglen]

^Took the words right off my keyboard. My Smith and Wesson 27 got a steady diet of 358-156 boolits loaded out over 12 grains of 2400 or 6.0 grains of Unique back in the 70's. 38 special brass was free on the ground, while .357 was rare and costly. I have not loaded either load for a while, but if my 357 brass supply were to suddenly dry up, I'd be back at it with no qualms or worries.

[44MAG#1]

158 grain at 1125 FPS. Don't know the test barrel length.

[onelight]

Welcome to the forum !
The only caution I would offer would be to stick to good reloading practice and start at the bottom and work up keeping notes on performance to a load you are happy with in both guns I shoot a lot of commercial cast these days including SNS Hi-Tek coated and they can work well for light to medium power loads and reserve my own cast for heavier loads. A great thing to avoid is hundreds of cartridges loaded that lead or won't shoot well in both your guns . Light loads that shoot clean are a good time for me , 2 hours of barrel scrubbing after 30 minutes of shooting is not
Take your time and enjoy the process . Don't assume because those 38s are going in a .357 you can shortcut the process.

[MT Gianni]

I have a couple of older Lyman manuals with 38-44 loads. PM your phone number and I will text you a picture. Otherwise I think Lyman #38 is on the web somewhere as is #40.

[mdi]

I reloaded a lot of 38 Specials to lower 357 Magnum velocities as experiments, but only fired them in my 357 revolver. Mainly my curiosity and I sectioned a 38 case and a 357 case and saw no difference except for length. I started with 357 Magnum starting loads right out of my reloading manuals. Since I never ran my 357 near max. I stopped at mid level loads (taking into account the reduced case volume). No problems, no "Celebrity Loads", no reduction formula, just thinking about what I was doing and proceeding with care...

I don't post any specific load data, mainly because I ignore any I see on any forum or pet loads website, hear from any range rat, gun counter clerk, good intended friend or gun shop guru. Ninety-eight of my load data comes from published lab reports and just a few from powder manufacturer's web sites. This has worked for me for over 40 years (nope I ain't computer illiterate) and I have had one squib in 1970 and no Kabooms ever...

[Cattleman406]

OAL will be around 1.440" or so, seated into the crimp groove.

[El Bibliotecario]

I don't see any problem using the loads described in .357 revolvers.

The late Charles "Skeeter" Skelton wrote of loading the Lyman 358156 bullet in .38 Special cases with the bullet crimped in the lower groove, allowing more room in the case, and a charge of 13.5 grains 2400, cautioning that it was only for .357 revolvers or N frame 38 Specials. I used this load for years with no problem, so I don't see lesser charges of 2400 in 38 Special brass as an issue.

[gwpercle]

I don't see any problem using the loads described in .357 revolvers.

The late Charles "Skeeter" Skelton wrote of loading the Lyman 358156 bullet in .38 Special cases with the bullet crimped in the lower groove, allowing more room in the case, and a charge of 13.5 grains 2400, cautioning that it was only for .357 revolvers or N frame 38 Specials. I used this load for years with no problem, so I don't see lesser charges of 2400 in 38 Special brass as an issue.

13.5 grains of #2400 was also the published load by Elmer Keith in his book "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" for the 38-44 Special with Lyman #358431 , SWC 160 gr. cast lead boolit , loaded in 38 special cases .

These loads predated the 357 Magnum and are referred to as 38-44 Special , both factory loads and hand loads as 38-44 Special .

In my opinion I would drop that charge (book written in 1936) to 13.0 grains #2400 , load them with the #358156 , 155 gr. SWC w/ gas check , seated in the Lower crimp groove (in 38 special brass) and shoot them only in 357 Magnum revolvers .
My Pet 38-44 Special Load , was taken from my brand new 1970 Speer Reloading Manual and may have been promoted by Skeeter Skelton was the above boolit and case , seated in the lower groove but with a charge of 7.5 grains of Unique ...
also regulated to shooting in 357 Magnum revolvers .

Finding free 357 Magnum brass was next to impossible back then ... so you used what you had.
Gary

[Outpost75]

The 13.5 grain "Skeeter" load is way too hot.

If you search Larry Gibson's earlier posts he has pressure-test data for .38-44 loads, and the 11 to 12-grain advice given in his post #3 above should be heeded!

[Cattleman406]

If i remember correctly, the formula for 2400 has been altered since then and 13.5 would be equivalent to around 12.5 now

[smkummer]

So almost 30 years of owning my first .357 magnum with more afterwards plus getting brass here and there, I have myself a good surplus of 357. Let me know if your interested in some.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Golleee, Cattleman406, it had to get down to Post #6 before someone welcomed you to the Forum. That Onelight is a nice guy. Let me add my welcome to his.

Otherwise, I can't add much to what's been said. I've got a very stout Colt Trooper Mk III that I shoot heavy .38 Spec. loads in that I wouldn't want to shoot in, say, my S&W Mod. 10. Have done it off and on for years without a problem. Usually, though, I use Unique.

[Taco Belly]

Hello all,

I've been shooting a SAECO #358 158 RNFP over 11.5 / 2400 in Starline cases for many years through a 3rd Gen Colt SAA. I get nothing but fantastic results...super accurate, and not too much recoil. The Colt shows zero excessive wear after 2k plus of this load...I seem to remember they run at about 1050-1100 ish FPS...

My 2 cents.

[Larry Gibson]

If i remember correctly, the formula for 2400 has been altered since then and 13.5 would be equivalent to around 12.5 now

Myth.....

[JM7.7x58]

I have loaded some of these “Hot Tamales”. They worked great in my .357 Mag revolvers. But I won’t be doing it anymore.

I have decided to not load my 38 special cases past +p levels. The reason why? One of my main shooting buddies has picked up two small framed 38sp revolvers. They are +p rated guns, not .38/44 rated guns. My teenage son shoots with us. You can tell a teen all day long that they shouldn’t do something. And they will do it anyway. So, no more “Hot Tamales” for me!

JM

[onelight]

I have loaded some of these “Hot Tamales”. They worked great in my .357 Mag revolvers. But I won’t be doing it anymore.

I have decided to not load my 38 special cases past +p levels. The reason why? One of my main shooting buddies has picked up two small framed 38sp revolvers. They are +p rated guns, not .38/44 rated guns. My teenage son shoots with us. You can tell a teen all day long that they shouldn’t do something. And they will do it anyway. So, no more “Hot Tamales” for me!

JM

I don't do it either I just don't need to. When I find a load I like I may 500 to a 1000 and put them in cans I have some stuff loaded 30 years ago I have 2 +p rated 38s , and I am another that does not want my kids or grandkids to put them in the wrong gun. My ammo is all labeled with powder and bullet and special instructions if there are any but I have plenty of 357 cases for hotter loads. And I don't have a 38 that would be rated for 38/44 so i don't do it just to keep life simple.

[beagle]

You're right on the money. I asked myself the same question years ago, researched the available data and added some to it. The article is listed as "High Speed .38 Special Loads" on Castpics. You might read that before you look around. I obtained all of the old bullet designs and duplicated the loads.
The .38 Special case in the .357 guns is one of the better all around calibers for small game hunting and general plinking and shooting that there is when loaded to its full potential. About all I use in the M1894 .357 Marlin./beagle