Advice/Experience with Colt SAA/SAA Derivatives?

[VariableRecall]

I know this is kind of silly coming from a new gun owner that's had a great experience with my Model 10, and wouldn't trade it for anything. However, after some reading through more of Elmer Keith's "Sixguns", I've been doing some research on the wide variety of Single Action Army derivations, as well as a little on the real deal, and think I may get one in the future.

I think the least I can do is try a friend's SAA derivative, which would be the most reasonable action to do before dumping cash into a beaut.

In terms of looks and make and model, I think the style that best fits my aesthetic and "wheelygun cool" looks is a 4.5 to 5.5 Inch barreled model (prefer 5.5) with their standard (Not Bisley) Grips in the classic caliber of .45 Colt. I'm partial to its standard sight, but target sights would be fairly welcome as well.

In terms of finish, I'd be OK with a case hardened or blued finish. Stainless would be nice if I could get it for the same price as a blued model. However, I'm not sure about any additional procedures needed to care for them. There's no need for any engravings or fancy stuff on the piece. I'd be looking for something in a mostly classic feel to it, without being showy.

I've had a detailed look at Ruger and Uberti's websites, and i've got a list of models that I find pleasing.

From Uberti's Websites, I'm liking, all 5.5 inch:
Chisholm, Hombre, El Patrón (Blued Model).

From Ruger:
Ruger Vaquero, Ruger New Vaquero, Ruger Blackhawk Convertible.

I haven't really looked into Cimarron or Colt, but I probably will in the future.

I'd love to hear of your takes on your Colt SAA/variant experience. Are there any manufacturers to avoid? I'm looking to get something that can reliably fire modern .45 Colt with no trouble. That is, if I ever get one. Perhaps I could get one from an owner that needs a little extra vault space as long as they have taken good care of it and it fits my wants.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Model 10 was a GREAT choice. A very iconic piece. A very good shooter. Totally useable. Nothing but but good to say there.

Concerning Colt SAA please, PLEASE, PPPLLLLLEEEEAAASSSE!
NEVER lower the hammer BEFORE going to full cock!
Many a nice Colt has had the resulting idiot ring scratched on the cylinder by an unsuspecting handler.
The Colt design drops the bolt (thing that holds the cylinder locked straight with the bore) out of the cylinder notch when the hammer is pulled to half cock. That unlocks the cylinder so you can turn it for loading/unloading. Once loaded or unloaded, the hammer MUST be pulled to full cock (all the way rearward). Then a cautious grasp of the hammer with the thumb, pointed in safe direction, hold the hammer back with thumb and pull the trigger. The hammer is under control of the thumb. While the trigger is held back (pulled and held) the thumb guides the hammer slowly, controlled, to gently rest against the frame.

Doing this, the bolt will not be in contact with the cylinder as it turns and will not leave the drag mark. The bolt will pop up exactly in the notch lead-in as the cylinder lines up with the bore.

The loading gate can be opened or closed at any time.

Lowering the hammer with your thumb is slightly risky. You can lose control of the hammer and let it drop with enough force to fire if there’s a cartridge in that chamber. So, always lower the hammer over an empty chamber. The easy way to load is the so called John Wayne method. Load one, skip one, load four, shut the door, cock and drop (the hammer, slowly).

The Colt clones work the same way. So do the early Rugers (called Old Models now days after the New Models came to market). Ruger brought out the New Models (Blackhawk and all the other single actions) in 1973 after being sued.

The New Models drop the bolt and release the cylinder by opening the loading gate and the hammer remains at rest.

The Colt SAAs, clones and Old Model Rugers allowed the hammer/firing pin to rest directly on the primer of a round under the hammer. So any knock or bump on the hammer (like dropping it on the floor) could fire the round. That’s why you always carry them hammer down on an empty chamber. Totally safe that way. Yes it makes them 5-shooters. It’s worked fine since 1873, except in Hollywood.

Other revolvers like the New Model Rugers, all the double actions Smiths and such have actions that let the bolt drag against the cylinder while it rotates. Consequently these all wear drags lines on their cylinders. The Colt was a bit more refined in their action. It’s common to see hundred year old Colt SAAs with heavy carry wear and no turn line on the cylinder. As it should be. Turn lines on Colts lower their value...a lot. So if you pull a Colt hammer from rest, take it to full cock BEFORE lowering the hammer.

Yes get one.
Get

[ReloaderFred]

You might look at the Great Western II's from EMF. They're made by Pietta, and are solid reproductions of the Colt SAA. My wife owns four of them, and shoots her two main guns in monthly SASS matches, plus big matches all over the west. She's put many thousands of rounds through her two main guns, without a hitch over the past 13 years of shooting SASS matches.

I shoot Ruger Blackhawks, all New models, and I have no idea how many rounds have been fired through my two main guns, since I bought them used, but in over 15 years of shooting SASS, they've never failed me once.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[onelight]

It depends on what is most important you . To me the the traditional Colt SA is one of the best looking factory six shooters of all time the color case hardened frame and blued cylinder and barrel and grip frame and one piece grips . But I have Ruger stainless in all my SA except for a blued bear cat & single six 22. I like stainless for what I will shoot a lot and keep because it I easy to take off any sharp edges I find uncomfortable and if it gets ratty looking it's mat finish is easy to fix on my bench. I also want adjustable sights so I can adjust for any load (with in reason ) that is my passion at the time. Also the stainless adjustable sight models have front sights that take a minimum amount of skill to replace and don't require refinishing the gun to do it should you find the need to do it.
You will get a lot of suggestions cause we all have reasons for what we like.
The good news is you have several good choices you may need to get more than 1

[shooting on a shoestring]

Get a Colt if you can afford it. They are the real deal that everyone copies.

There are 3 generations of the Clot SAA. 1st gen runs from 1873 to WWII. Colt didn’t bring back production after the war bc they didn’t see a demand for the single action when double actions were widely accepted. Well, until Hollywood cranked out Westerns and Bill Ruger started making single actions to fill the demand for “Cowboy” guns. Colt brought back production in 1956. These were the 2nd generation. These ran into the early 70’s when Colt made a couple of minor changes (barrel threads, cylinder bearing). That was the start of the 3rd generation which is still going albeit going slowly. They don’t make many.

The clones have a pecking order.
The 1970’s Italian clones Pietta, Uberti EMF etc... were decent. Still a good value.
Uberti in particular has made progress and new production this century are very good.
USFA is alleged to have bought the old Colt factory machines and made revolver very nearly identical to Colts with a few Uberti parts. USFA only produced a few years. They were generally better quality than the average Colt. They were expensive and now they are gaining collectors value. They are truly great shooters.

Standard Manufacturing is now making a clone. It’s a very high quality, highly finished piece.

The new clones often shoot better than the Colts. This is due to the dimensions of the chamber throats, gap, barrel groove diameters. They also have great modern metallurgy.

Colts have had some varying quality at various times.
But, Colt is the original and they have the panache, collector value and the new ones are generally really good shooters. However it’s typical of Colt chamber throats to run on the large side. That gives problems if the shooter doesn’t cast and load boolits fit to the large chamber throats. I’ve seen Colt SAA’s in 45 Colt with throats 0.456” and barrel groove diameters 0.452. They shoot great with boolits sized 0.456”. They lead badly with commercial boolits sized 0.452”.

[leadeye]

It's always good to have at least one 1st generation Colt, after that you can take your choice. I like to go shooting with really old guns sometimes, it just feels good.

[Harter66]

I too lusted after an SAA and finally had one in hand and shot it some . It was an Uberti 4-5/8" , the action was smooth , tight , good trigger , crisp break and just not what I had anticipated . Don't get me wrong mechanically it was excellent , physically it was everything I expected . It pointed well , balanced well , easy to find sight line , it even felt good in hand . But there was just something between the sear break and reset that just ground on me , I don't know what it was but it just didn't work for me . Unfortunately it's the same with the 1860 clones but it's not there in the Dragoon and it isn't there in the later DAs like the direct competition to the early M10 S&W .

Before getting that gun I had spent a fair amount of time with a Colts 38 Special , 1917 and 1860s , S&W M10 , Ruger Security 6 357 and the Ruger BlackHawk 45 Colts NM with the various cowboy grips styles , as of this writing it occurs to me the SAA had a more "plow handle" grip than the longer sloping "traditional" grip and that may have been the problem with me .

I have spent a lot of time with a "Bicentennial" 45 Colts BlackHawk 7.5" barrel there are times when I wish it were a 5-1/2 , usually when the 2 oz would really make a difference . It came fitted with Pachmar grips , and I eventually aquired a 45 ACP cylinder for it . Honestly having run on up to Ruger only loads I don't need that much . It is to me like having a 357 and shooting hot 38s and even hot +Ps but only just tipping into 357 loads . It's having a platform that allows for hot loads if you want or need it without risk of damage . 1100 fps with 255-265 gr bullets is plenty of hammer for me , but there still room to move up and that's really just a little bit out of max standard Colts loads . +P ACPs are like switching to 38s in a 3# gun .
The large frame BH doesn't point as fluid as the Colts but even the target sight is easy to find . I blame the pointing flow on the Pachmar grips build up on the rear strap , new grips are on the to do list .......

I have a 3rd cylinder I hope to soon have cut for 45 S&W .

[DougGuy]

The New Model Vaquero is only a traditional sixgun in looks. Plus the fact that the cylinder holds six shots. There is no "4 clicks to full clock" unless you drop in an aftermarket hammer, but as far as utility and durability goes the Ruger has it hands down for the price.

For accuracy in executing a 140yr old design and having it look the part of an old Colt, the Italian clones are very good. They have gotten a lot better in recent years as sales have jumped which gives them funds for better tooling, better quality control, and they pretty much capture and fill the desire for the old west guns. A lot of folks like them, myself included. My avatar pic is a Uberti "Old West" model that is aged to look like an old Colt and having owned the same exact old Colt they are trying to emulate, I have to say they knocked it out of the park.

As far as loads, the top of the power band goes to the full sized Vaquero and Blackhawk (two digit prefix in serial number) these can handle the stoutest handloads and are larger, with thicker cylinders, very good for hunting big game, less desirable for SASS shooting due to their size and weight.

The middle band, or tier 2 loads run in the +P pressure range, these would be better suited in the medium frame New Model Vaquero, and Flattop Blackhawk (three digit prefix in serial number) still plenty powerful for hunting, these are lighter and thinner cylinders for quicker handling and easier packing on the hip, and are some of Ruger's best made sixguns. The Lipsey's limited runs are some of the nicest looking and best fitted of the bunch.

The traditional power band, the 14,000psi pressure ceiling of the original 45 Colt is well suited for the original Colts and the Italian clones, less pressure Cowboy loads are often used in competition. Some of the Italian clones can handle the tier 2 loads safely but I wouldn't push one to that level of power, the Rugers are very affordable and very durable with these loads.

The truth about owning SAA revolvers is that one seems to be not enough, to fully experience all facets of owning and shooting the SAA, you might want at least two Rugers, one NM Vaquero with traditional sights, and a NM Blackhawk with adjustable sights, and then one or two Italian Colt clones, and if you can find one affordable enough, invest in an old Colt. There is nothing quite like the real deal.

[Thumbcocker]

Consider getting one with a .45 acp cylinder as well. Lots if brass around and usually a little easier to find ammo.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Lots of good information and advice above. Nothing to really disagree with.

You mentioned not having checked out Cimarron. Their 1873 clones are Uberti.

If you are going to buy new, then there is no longer much to choose between Uberti and Pietta. If you buy used, then the older Ubertis were the better choice.


Newer Pietta .357



Of course the Colt of any vintage is the gold standard of 1873s, but you'll pay accordingly.

Personal bias and experience, I like the Ruger Vaquero, but not so much the New Model Vaquero. It was designed to try and duplicate the Colt's heft and balance, but doesn't quite make it. The Old Vaquero is a Blackhawk without the adjustable sights, is larger than the Colt, but I like it, own three. It is what it is, which is not a Colt or clone.

You also mentioned stainess, which is a good option if (1) you're seeking improved corrosion (rust) resistance, and (2) don't mind the appearance being non-traditional. They're not as easy to find.



4 3/4" or 5 1/2" -- tough choice. The first is a little handier, the second gives a bit longer sighting plain and probably gets the nod for hunting. You're not likely to notice much difference shooting at targets on the pistol range.

One thing is for certain, like potato chips, you probably won't settle for just one.

DG

[onelight]

Another thing to consider is if you want the ability to shoot heavy loads the the full size black Hawk in 45 colt is the only new choice . If you choose a colt clone consider the 44 special that gives you the option of the loads similar to what you see in six guns prior to the 44 mag. I find 44 special also has fewer complications to find good loads for and better case life than 45 colt at times.

[smkummer]

I am a colt collector and have somewhere around 10 Colt SAAs including New Frontier, bisley and the budget colt cowboy. One of my Colt SAAs in 45 colt has a fitted 45 acp cylinder that because I am a reloader, it very seldom gets used.
A full charge load in a SAA can and will send a 250 grain out about 900 FPS. With a plow handle single action grip. This completely rotates a 5 1/2” barrel SAA muzzle to the 12 o’clock position rapidly. 2 handed controls this better. For a more relaxed range session, cowboy loads in the 6-700 FPS range with a 200 grain bullet are easily assembled.
I am guessing almost every single action shooter likes to hear the 4 clicks when cocking the hammer.
So only you will know if that’s important over the safety provided with the ruger if 6 rounds are loaded.
I am guessing others may do this as well, if I am on the firing line and plan on shooting right after loading, I’ll load 6 in my colt and go from 1/2 cock to full cock and fire. For cowboy action of course, we always load 5.
45 cowboy special brass loads with 45 acp dies and a 45 colt shell holder. And is fired in a 45 long colt cylinder. It allows really small charges to fire consistently.

[smkummer]

Agree with onelight and the 44 special caliber should you want a bit more than 45 colt.

[Bigslug]

Define "Modern .45 Colt" If you're looking to handload for magnum-level horsepower, the Ruger Blackhawk platform - not the current Vaquero - is your gun of choice. It's worth remembering that even the Old West period 225-255 grain solid bullet loadings were considered adequate to literally both "screw you AND the horse you rode in on", so you might stop and question what real need there is to hot-rod the thing.

If you're looking for pure traditional with black powder (ish) level pressures, the Cimmaron product line is very extensive and replicates many of the variations of guns that Colt made throughout the S.A.A.'s production history.

The modern (post 1973) transfer-bar Rugers are unquestionably a safer gun for the uninitiated that want the Peacemaker look, but don't know how, aren't mechanically inclined, or aren't willing to deal with/accept the realities of a true S.A.A.'s hammer-mounted firing pin and multi-station cocking system.

[Outpost75]

My Cimarron Pistolero .45 Colt and Frontier .44-40 models are both made by Pietta. My two New Sheriff's Models in the same calibers are by Uberti. All four guns nicely turned out and shoot well. I used cylinder shim kits from Lance Shively to tighten the Uberti black powder frame Sheriff's models, and all four revolvers needed to have front sights dressed down a bit to zero.

Attachment 272625Attachment 272626Attachment 272627

[Bazoo]

I've never owned a colt or clone. Clones being uberti or other copy. Ruger new model Blackhawks and vaqueros are not exactly clones, they just have the traditional style.

With a colt or clone, or a Ruger old model, you can safely only carry 5 rounds. You must keep an empty chamber under the hammer This is because the hammer nose rests on the primer if the hammer is all the way down. Should the gun be dropped or have a strike to the hammer it will discharge. They have a safety notch on the hammer that keeps the firing pin from touching, but this isn't considered safe for carry.

With a new model Ruger, vaquero or blackhawk, you can safely carry all six chambers loaded.

There is another thing, that others don't notice or mention. The trigger. On a colt or clone, it isn't centered in the frame. On a Ruger new model, it is. This is a deal breaker for me. When you get the chance to look at a colt you should notice this and decide if it's a factor for you.

One thing to consider is caliber. Rugers are commonly available with 45 acp conversion cylinder. With your buddy's 45 reloading gear, you could shoot right from the start. Otherwise you'll have to acquire all the required caliber specific stuff for 45 colt.

You might consider a 357 as well, since you're already set to load 38 special. 357 magnum is a lengthened and more powerful version of the 38 special, and all 357 magnum chambered arms can accept and safely fire 38 special.

[Walks]

Lots of interesting commentary here.

If YOU want a .45Colt then buy that. As much as I love the .44Spl, there is a mystique about the .45Colt that no other Cartridge comes close to.
These days if I were to buy another Italian clone; (I have 9) I would get a Cimarron. I think they offer the best on the market today.
The revolvers I have were mostly made from the late 1980's to the early 2000's.
Uberti, Pietta and Armi San Marco.
They run from 3 1/2" to 7 1/2" .
In .357Mag, .44Spl, .44-40 & .45Colt calibers.
Fit and finish very a bit, but I consider all of them very good. With the last Cimarron bought in 2005 to be excellent.
All will shoot within 3 inches at 25yrds. Some very much better.

I also own 3 Colts, all late 1970's- early 1980's revolvers.
The pair in .44Spl were shot from 1987 to 2011 in Cowboy Shooting, approximately 5,000rds a year plus. With a complete teardown cleaning every year. I also replaced springs then too. They are excellent Revolvers. Again Mystique of the Real Colt SAA, if you can find one and afford it when you do.

As far as the Rugers go. I own 3 Blackhawks, 2 SBH's, 3 old Vaquero's and one New Vaquero.
They are a TOUGH Revolver.
If you can check out the various Revolvers in your hand before you Buy.
By all means, Do it. It's what You like the best that matters.
Good Luck with your choice.

[VariableRecall]

Define "Modern .45 Colt" If you're looking to handload for magnum-level horsepower, the Ruger Blackhawk platform - not the current Vaquero - is your gun of choice. It's worth remembering that even the Old West period 225-255 grain solid bullet loadings were considered adequate to literally both "screw you AND the horse you rode in on", so you might stop and question what real need there is to hot-rod the thing.

I just want to make sure that the cartridges marked ".45 Colt" at the store can move through my future piece with no issue whatsoever. Not looking to push punishing loads through the thing, although, the Blackhawk's extra reinforcement would be a very nice margin for safety in handloads.

[VariableRecall]

Another quick question regarding loading for .45 Colt.

My brother has a bunch of 200gn SWC's sized for .453. Would they be able to work loading .45 Colt?
I had seen from another poster that some of their SAA's required oversized boolits to work effectively.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Another quick question regarding loading for .45 Colt.

My brother has a bunch of 200gn SWC's sized for .453. Would they be able to work loading .45 Colt?
I had seen from another poster that some of their SAA's required oversized boolits to work effectively.

That depends a bit on which .45 Colt. (?) Years ago the bore size for .45 Colt was .454". Today you'll have difficulty finding one not bored to .452". So, I'd say that if it's a recently manufactured Colt or clone .453" would work just fine. In an older revolver with a .454" bore it might be a little loose, but still might prove satisfactory. Like opinions, bores vary.