Body lead.

[Bloodman14]

Wasn't sure where else to put this. I am doing a 'restomod' (restoration/modification) on an old Ford. Contacted the Eastwood company with this question, and was referred to the manufacturer. I was surprised that they couldn't answer (Eastwood). My question; at what year did the use of HSLA steel come to be used in automotive bodies? I am wanting to use body lead/solder on this old Ford, but am having issues with tinning the steel and getting the lead to stay where I put it (it tends to 'ball up' instead of staying put). Apparently, these new steels can't be used with lead. Any old-school bodymen out there?

[skeettx]

https://www.imoa.info/molybdenum-use...lloy-steel.php

[Huskerguy]

Well, this brings back memories. I have restored multiple cars and taught collision repair, getting out in 1999.

I can't remember the exact year that HSLA steel came onto the screen. It is primarily used on structural portions of a car/truck. Depending on the alloy they used, the problem to avoid is too much heat. The old way was to heat damaged areas when you were pulling them out. Keep in mind I am not up to date but I used to teach students to use a temperature crayon we would put on the metal as we heated it up, the crayon melted at whatever temp it was designed to melt at.

I ran a lot of lead in my day on street rods and restorations. They make a product called tinning butter that some people used while I generally used acid core solder. The accepting metal has to be warm enough to accept the solder but not too hot to warp. Used a slightly carburizing cool flame keeping it mostly paralel to the metal, not directly on it.

Then warm up the "tinned" area and it will turn shiney color. Heat up the lead, I like 70-30, melt it and form it with a wooden paddle and bees wax.

Surely there is a video out in this. This really stretches my memory so take it for what it's worth. I also did a lot of metal finishing meaning I used the existing metal by picking and filing to get it straight, no fillers.

Good luck, it is pretty tricky.

[Bird]

How old is this old ford? I have leaded up a few mustangs from the mid '60's, and never a problem. From the 90's on most factories dont use lead for seam joints (ROOF TO 1/4 PANEL) they use brazed joints.

[labradigger1]

Flux the steel, heat steel and tin it with lead wool

[Bloodman14]

!979 Ford. It's what I have to work with. I am not a pro by any means; learning as I go. I understand that beyond a certain year/era, Bondo is advisable, due to the alloys in modern autobody steel.

[SweetMk]

I understand that beyond a certain year/era, Bondo is advisable, due to the alloys in modern autobody steel.

If you get good results with older cars, but, not this Ford, I would bet the steel alloy has nothing to do with it.

The reason that High STRENGTH Low Alloy steel is used is that much thinner steel allows the body panel to have similar strength as the un-alloyed steel.
The steel is so thin, that it is VERY difficult to heat the steel without going to an overtemperature situation.

I recommend trying to lead the panel with a much smaller heat source, so that the steel rises in temperature much slower.

If you are using oxy-acetylene as the torch fuel, try oxy-propane.
In either case, an oxy-fuel torch is necessary to allow you to adjust to a carburizing flame.
You said you are new to this, do you know how to adjust a torch for a carburizing flame?
We can go into more detail on flame adjustment, if that is not fully understood.

[GregLaROCHE]

I once started out trying to use lead on an early 70’s car. I was soon convinced by others to switch to Bondo type fillers with good surface preparation and treatment. It’s a lot faster too. Lead is the best, but you really need to be honest with yourself, as to what your finished product is going to be. To what point are you really going to take the total restoration to? What is your budget for the rest of the vehicle ? There are an awful lot of beautiful restorations based on Bondo. You can even mix resins with micro ballons and other thickeners to get a consistency and set up time that works best for you.

[poppy42]

How old of car are you talking about? Your about six years too late, I could’ve sent you my paddles tallow tanning compound just about everything you would’ve needed. All gone now long story. I was once Rolls-Royce certified. Everything was picking file and finished with lead. Also I had all the tack hammers for doing interiors. Don’t even know where you get supplies anymore. The trick was grinding the steel clean , getting steel hot enough and using the right tinning compound, then using waxed paddles to float the lead in. Really no different than soldering anything. If you can sweat a copper pipe little practice no reason why you can’t lead us steel body panel. Might try contacting some of the classic car clubs. The problem with today’s body panels isn’t The composition of the body panels, it’s how much thinner they are. Very easy to stretch the steel or warp it with heat. Unless you’re talking about a Ford from the 50s or very early 60s you’re probably wasting your time with lead. There’s nothing wrong with a good quality auto body filler. I started working in my first collision repair shop when I was 13 for my brother and spent the better part of the next 30 years perfecting my craft. I come from a long line of auto body repair man including my father and three of my four brothers. Funny thing is now I don’t even like putting gas in my car now let alone doing repairs on them. Only do it if I have to. Sorry can’t be more help all I can do is wish you good luck

[Bloodman14]

So, the question is the thickness, not the alloy? I am using a propane flame for now, currently out of acetylene. That may explain the warping I am seeing. I am a career heavy steel worker, this is new to me, admittedly. As I said, learning as I go. Do an image search; 1964 Ford Fairlane Tasca; that is what I am attempting to 'mimic' with what I have.

[SweetMk]

Are you using (one tank) propane/air or are you using (two tanks) propane/oxygen?

You need to be using the two tank torch,
Part of what you need is a VERY clean steel to get the lead to "stick" to the steel.
A two tank torch allows you to adjust the flame so that there is excess fuel,

A neutral flame (you automatically get only this with a one tank torch) is a balanced mixture of fuel and oxygen.
There is just enough oxygen to burn all of the fuel.
(Oh, yea, if the one tank torch is dirty, or for some other reason not operating perfectly, you can actually get an oxidizing flame)

An oxidizing flame is a mixture where there is excess oxygen,
if there is excess oxygen, the extra oxygen will "rust" the steel that you are aiming the torch at.
Lead will not stick to the "newly" rusted steel.

If there is an excess of fuel, which you can adjust to get with a two tank torch, the excess fuel will mix with the oxygen that is present on the steel, and the excess fuel will literally burn away the excess oxygen on the surface of the steel,

When you burn away the oxygen on the steel, what is happening is you are converting rust back to iron (steel) and the lead will readily bond to the newly cleaned steel.

Converting rust, or other forms of "iron oxide" to steel is called reducing . You are literally reducing the weight of the steel (the oxygen is leaving).
Reducing is also one of the names given to the flame that is adjusted to excess fuel, because the flame can reduce the iron oxide.
"Carburizing" is the other name given to this type flame, because there is an excess of carbon.

So, what I am trying to say is that the torch can actually act as the flux in getting the lead to bond to the steel.
This is also very common to use a reducing flame when brazing copper pipe(on air conditioning)
When you use a reducing flame on copper, the oxide of copper is reduced to just copper, and literally you can see the color of the copper change from looking like an "old penny" to looking like a "new penny"

[Bloodman14]

SweetMk, I know about carburizing and oxidizing flames, am a career steelworker. I am learning this as I go, and your explanation, along with what I am seeing, makes sense. I will look for a 2-tank setup, and try again. Thanks, guys.

[poppy42]

What type of lead are you using?

[Bloodman14]

Eastwood's 70/30.

[poppy42]

Eastwood's 70/30.

You should I have no problem with that. Heck the best thing I have I got to use was 50/50 or 60/40. And yes I would not use a propane torch. I always used an Oxsee acetylene torch and when I could find one of flame spreader, or a small healing tip( rose bud). The idea being getting the area you want to apply the lead to hot enough while not heating the whole panel to the point of warpage. Keep a bucket of cold water and a rag handy, To cool everything off and shrink the Steel down. Sorry I am digging through the cobwebs of my brain remembering things that I haven’t done in 30 years. The information is still there it’s just tough to get to lol. You should have no problems with a 64 Ford Fairlane. You’re bringing back some fond memories is in my younger days that’s all I owned was fords. Including a 64 Ford galaxy 500 XL ragtop with a single quad 427 in it, A 63 Ford galaxy 500 rag top with a 390 in it. Anna’s 70 Torino with a 429 cobra jet in it. I digress! Hey if you have any questions you think I might be able to help with feel free to PM me if you’d like. P.m. me and I’ll even send you my phone number.
Good luck and have fun!
Poppy42

[Huskerguy]

They used to make a piece that went over the usual number #2 oxy acetylene tip. It kept the heat low by reducing the oxy from the atmosphere.

You do not have HSLA metal on that old of a car. As I stated earlier, you will "generally" only find that on structural panels.

The real key is how you control the heat. Too much and you will create more damage than you will fix. Do NOT aim the flame directly at the metal, feather it on there.

I don't think anyone said this but the shape of the panel you want lead is important. You can't lead a flat hood very easily but the bottom of a fender or quarter panel are easier. The flat panels will warp like crazy.

Also keep in mind that it is difficult to get the lead perfectly flat the first time. You generally will need more filler on top of it. Best of luck.

[MOA]

Brings back memories. My dad was a tin pounder for years. Finished as a teacher at a tech/occ school. He use to mix up a mud pack of asbestos on the back side to keep the warp down. Dad was old school. Maxwell's, Rolls Royce and Piccadilly Ford's along with Stanly Steamers.

[Ban]

You can use a mapp gas single tank torch. Propane alone doesn't burn clean enough. Plenty hot but leaves residue on the surface. Much harder to make it stick.

I was exposed to some old timers of flatheads & lead sleds as a child. We use/d linotype or linotype cut with ww. My 97 Chevy wears some still. I refuse bondo on anything except smoothing plastics/composites. Use metal to fix metal is my take.

Clean & abrade metal, flux, heat (using clean burning fuel torch), smear on high tin or antimony lead, & file down. Never an issue or warpage that way.

If warping the metal it's way more hot than needed.