Do you prefer slower and heavier, or lighter and faster?

[Good Cheer]

Will a full flat wadcutter with a big diameter cup point punch through winter clothing more reliably than a solid nosed wadcutter?
I don't know. But it's something I'd like to test.

[tazman]

The question posed by the OP, for me, depends greatly on where I am and what I am doing.
My gun and loads differ for the application needed. Home as opposed to carry in a crowd.

[imashooter2]

Can’t recall where I saw it, but this sums it up for me...
Shot placement is King.
Penetration is Queen.
All else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.

[M-Tecs]

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

[M-Tecs]

I've been following SD handgun stopping power since the 70's. Between the Government and civilian manufactures we have far more choices than ever and technology has benefited some cartridges more than others. In the 70's the Rem JHP 125 grain was providing 96% one shot stops. It still is today.

Both the 9mm and 45 ACP started life as military round using FMJ. The 9mm ball had about 34% one shot stops and 45 ACP was about 56%. With quality expanding bullets the 9mm moves to high 80's to mid 90's. Same for the 45 ACP.

The OP asked lighter faster or heavier slower. Throwing in pentation into the OP question comparing the 45 ACP with ball to the 357 with 125 grain JHP gives insight to both the validity of both philosophies with lots of actual data to based your decision on. The 45 ACP 230 brain ball gives better penetration. The 125 JHP expands very well.

Also I know a man that (in the line of duty killed men) with a 45 ACP using ball and a 357 using 125 grain JHP's. He was a big believer in the 357 with 125 grain jacketed hollow points.

[Kosh75287]

I want, AT BARE MINIMUM, 200 grains at 860 f/s, or the equivalent in momentum, with the heaviest projectile that is practical for the caliber. I'd rather have a LRNFP, FMJFP, or LSWC over a jacketed hollow-point or a JSP.

[Static line]

Slow and heavy for me. I like over penetration. I choose cast bullets with WFN. On game, I like two holes for blood to get out fast. For self defense, well you just might be able to get the other bad guy standing behind the one who is in his way.

[Kosh75287]

ADDENDUM: I was interrupted (by non-forum events) before I completed my post, so here's the rest. Through a not-very-systematic nor exhaustive(but the best I could do) assessment of one-shot stops and one-shot stoppage failures, I've come to the conclusion that there's a minimum momentum that renders a greater-than-chance probability of stopping a determined attack with a solid hit to the upper torso. It consists of a bullet no smaller than .356" diameter, no lighter than 172 grains, propelled at no less than 1000 f/s AT THE TARGET, NOT THE MUZZLE, or any combination of bullet weight and velocity, the product of which is 172,000 (grains*ft.)/sec.
This mathematical product will seem redolent of the various IPSC/IDPA/USPSA/etc. "power floor" ratings for "major", and shares SOME foundation with those figures. But MY criterion replaces muzzle velocity with the velocity at which the bullet actually strikes the target. I also do not make much of bullet configuration, except with regard to shape, i.e., I count a LSWC as having as much stopping potential as a LSWC hollow-point. The latter works wonderfully, WHEN IT WORKS. When it does not work, it mashes closed and acts like a LRN. I similarly count a FMJFP the same as a LRNFP. If pushed fast enough, the latter may disrupt and expand slightly on bone or other hard tissue, and be less likely to produce a through-and-through wound. The latter typically does not expand or deform on most body tissues, and is more likely to produce a through-and-through wound.
ALL PROJECTILES ARE COMPROMISES AND CONCESSIONS TO SOMETHING. FMJRNs tend to feed more reliably, not expand in, and often traverse the target. HPs tend to feed LESS reliably, expand erractically, and over-penetrate less often. The various RNFPs, FMJFPs, and JSPs tend to lie between the first two bullet types in these indices.
Until we develop the technology by which a FMJRN bullet is transformed to an inverted HBWC just before target contact, we're stuck with the advantages and failings of whichever type we choose. And, right after that technology becomes accessible, we will no doubt be conducting small-unit skirmishes with Phasers, and not firearms. So it goes...

[stubshaft]

Slower and heavier AND most accurate! A fast miss doesn't mean beans...

[onelight]

I am a slower heavier guy for the most part for several reasons , I find subsonic more pleasant to shoot , it seems easier to find cast loads that don't lead in multiple guns , heavy flat point bullets are more predictable on impact with meat and bone . I like um all but prefer .40 to .45 in hand guns .

[bmortell]

think i disagree with most people here. most seem to prioritize heavy slow and accuracy. even though 125gr 357 has the best record, and to me self defense im feeling like if the slight difference in accuracy between different weights is actually needed then i have the wrong tool or im worried about something hard to argue as actual self defense.

[Gray Fox]

There are other practical considerations here, too. For concealed carry do you want a 4" heavy barrel K frame with a 125 grain .357 HP at about 1,150 fps or a commander size 1911 with a 200 grain RNFP or TC at 875 fps? GF

[bmortell]

There are other practical considerations here, too. For concealed carry do you want a 4" heavy barrel K frame with a 125 grain .357 HP at about 1,150 fps or a commander size 1911 with a 200 grain RNFP or TC at 875 fps? GF

if thats all 357 could do then probably 45. but 1450-1550fps from 4" is what can make smaller better. or maybe you were trying to equalize for comparison

[Texas by God]

I would use either one of the OPs loads providing that they hit POI at 20 feet or so and fed 100%. I only carry a Shield 9 or a 1911 .45 and I use Hornady Critical Defense in both because they raise hell with a 5 gallon bucket of water fired at from above at 5 feet( that's my test- simple mind). If I know trouble is coming, the pistol will be holstered and the 870 or AR15 will be in my hands.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[AndyC]

Placement, Penetration - and repeat until the shape changes or catches fire.

[downzero]

. When it does not work, it mashes closed and acts like a LRN.

I have reviewed a lot of murder cases and officer involved shootings and I have never seen that. When a hollow point fills with clothing and doesn't "work," it generally stays the same diameter it was and punches through like an FMJ, penetrating deeper but not expanding. I've never seen the nose get smaller or 'mash closed.'

After seeing a lot of autopsy reports, I have a lot less confidence in hollow point performance even if they are expensive ones. But I also see little downside. If they don't open, you're no worse off. A LSWCHP that doesn't open is still a LSWC.

[468]

I wonder if anyone on the receiving end of 230g FMJ .45 ever thought; “ thank god that wasn’t a 125g .357 JHP!”...or vice- versa.

[memtb]

Without reading all of the posts, I question why the 45ACP FMJ ( which is essentially a round point) is compared to a high velocity .357 Mag JHP.

Everyone should be aware that a non-expanding round nose projectile does very little tissue damage. Tissue (muscle, organs, vessels) are somewhat pushed aside, with the soft elastic tissue returning to it’s original status (though with a small hole/tear), quickly sealing the puncture wound (think stepping on a nail). There will be a minimal amount of hemorrhaging as compared to a high velocity, expanding bullet which makes a large channel, tearing wound.....which cannot return to it’s original composition (self-sealing)!

If a wadcutter, or semi-wadcutter where used in the .45 as a comparison, the .45 results would substantially improve. Example: Round nose cast bullets are not normally recommended for hunting big game.....a heavy, wide metplat bullet is the preference!

I think that if we compared wound characteristics of a .45 JHP to a .357 JHP .....the .45 would be much better represented. memtb

[Groo]

Groo here
My 2cents.
First, the load must function,,, load,fire,eject and go where you want........
Where it goes is your job.
Cooper said that any round that can be expected to stop a fight with one hit [in the correct place] will tend to go through.
That is the power needed.
I use [in my autos ] FMJ flat nose [if i can find them]
In my revolvers ,,, that is different.
The expanding bullet can be made "softer" so it will deform more often and at lower speeds.
Autos must go through the feed cycle without damage..

Therefore a revolver [which will shoot any bullet design] would be the best "self defence" pistol [where a one shot stop is wanted and just the bad guy gets hit]
but an auto round a better "war " round . [where the intent is to wound and require medical help and others getting hit is just "accepted as long as its not us]]

[Harter66]

My 2¢ .
Excluding the 40/10 we're talking about cartridges that have over 100 years of RD , and the 40/10 is pushing 50 yr so I would expect that the core of load data by bullet weight would be the best suited for a particular cartridge with typical tool selection .

I'm always baffled as to why the 9mm is so beloved and the 38 so disparaged . Compare a 147 RF or HP to a 158 OF THE SAME DESIGN and it's a dead heat or very close . Throw a +P 125 38 up against a 9mm 124/5 and there just isn't a gap especially if you put the 9mm in a revolver . If someone wants to send me a box at 50 ea I'd be too happy make to make jello , cut cases , and do a single platform side by side of 9mm and 38 Special with suitable data for for each with chronograph , weigh lots , and what I wear every day penetration and expansion tests .

There's 1 40 available to me but I'd be happy to compare a 141-165 45 ACP or 40 at the same speeds as the 9/38 . Using a 45 RBH I don't see a problem getting there .

In the glory days of dual quads and breaker points there was an expression , "there's no replacement for displacement" , and personally I'll take a 9-1100 fps 140-165 gr 45 cal hole over a .355-357 every time .

Now if we add nose shape we need to have a 9/38 , 40 , 45 cal with the same shape per frontal area . We can't just go and compare a 147 Gold Dot 9mm to a 358-158 RNFP may as well be a full WC Lee . If we're shooting 140 gr XTP or GD then we need some in all 4 . I shot a few 85 gr GD in a 38 once , they would knock over a half bowling pin sized piece of 4×4 post 100% no exit where a 158 SWC plated would pass through with barely a wiggle . A full boat 357 would have had near enough muzzle blast to blow it over . I'd bet a soft .454 RB would roll the blocks too . So now we have a playing field of that Markov .365 1 R Lee for 9/38 and a plain RB in the ACP or a collar button sized down . I can't think of a 40 cal off hand .

A 200 in a 9mm will be a hot 38/200 vs a SIL load in 38 Special which +p or not will have a velocity edge but be close to the 40 S&W and it's a lightweight in the 45 .

I could go on about how eggs to eggs work for a neat little package but you're hard pressed to make an omelette with caviar and you better be feeding a bunch if you have an ostrich egg to start with .

I haul around a 380 with HyShok like HPs or a 40 with a 165 TMJ RNFP . Hunting I haul a 357 with a 358-158 or a 45 with a 454424 NOE version so far so good . The 357 has finished 3 mule deer at 15-25 ft high neck disconnection . The 1000 fps 454424 has killed 4/5 of its hogs 1 shot inside 5 yd to 47 yd bang , thud , collapse . The other was all juiced up running like Seattle Slew down the home stretch good clean hit exited the off side via the soft edge of the scapula at 17 yd . It hit a rib going in another going out through about 1.5" of shield light cartilage in total , and the shoulder blade . 24" of live skin cartilage , meat , bone , lungs , bone , meat , bone , meat , cartilage , skin . That one ran 200 >< yd .
I can't say for sure , but if a confrontation gets to a shooting solution , just like that last hog , I'm thinking I'm going to be pretty juiced up and so is the other guy .