I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech

[SweetMk]

dogdoc, I am not into the "flaming" thing and you are certainly valid in your question,

Well, I figured I would try "FLAMING", since no one else has,,,

Hand taped, of course,,,







This is all that I know on the subject,,,,,,,,,,

[megasupermagnum]

I figured I should add what I do and do not like about both methods. I only started casting about 5 years ago, which coatings were already quite popular at the time. I was in my 20's, which is very much in the "9mm pistol and AR15 rifle age group", although I never had much love for either.

My very first cast bullets I could have done any method. I chose to pan lube. They worked quite well. As time went on, I tried the other methods. I still use tumble lubing, and find it an extremely quick and effective method. I never found alox lube to be sticky, and never had any issues with it. I have yet to have alox lube shoot as good as wax lube though. Going to powder coat, as well as some store bought hitec, I again found accuracy never quite matched a wax lube.

In regards to the actual loading of the bullets, I never saw huge gains with any method. I bulk store wax lube bullets, and never had anything bad happen. I wouldn't try it with a crumby lube like NRA 50-50, but the more malleable lubes store fine. I keep them in relatively smaller containers, maybe quart size, and I pour them in as gently as possible. I suppose you may be able to roughly dump coated bullets in large containers like an ice cream pail with minimal risk to the coating, but you would be damaging the bullets. Alox tumble lube would be just as durable as coated, but again, I am gentle with them. A ding in a bullet base is a ruined bullet. When it comes to getting lube in the seating die, I've have very few issues. Coated bullets I would assume would go an extremely long time, maybe forever with nothing in the die. With tumble lube, I usually get a full run on my progressive with only a couple thousandths change in depth. A full run for me is 1000-2000 rounds loaded at a time. With wax lube, it depends. You could go forever if the noses were clean, but then one with a glob of lube could ruin it. I have minimal lube on noses, and I usually notice a glob. I again can usually get a full run on a progressive without a cleaning. When I say cleaning, I mean I remove the die, take a Q tip, dip it in acetone, and wipe out the seating stem of the lube. It is a 30 second job, and something I consider a non-issue. I am speaking of pistol loading mainly, and do not load rifle rounds in such bulk. Also, the seating stems of rifle dies are hollow, and I have never had lube change them.

I'd like to touch on one subject that people have mentioned, and that is handling lead. Sure, wax lubed bullets will leave a minor smudge on two fingers after a decent loading session. Beyond that, your lead exposer is not significantly reduced with coated bullets. It would be dangerous to think you can relax your precautions. You are still just as exposed when casting those bullets, and there is plenty of unseen lead dust on those even when coated. The most important thing to remember is that the #1 source of dangerous lead exposure to shooters is from primers. Both during shooting, and reloading, the primer dust is more dangerous than the bullet. Dry tumbling brass can be especially bad. I hate to think of all the time I was tumbling brass in my bedroom. Just don't eat when loading, wash your hands when done, you will be safe no matter how the bullets are prepared.

Back to shooting, I do not shoot indoors, or competitions. I did not even notice any smoke when shooting until I read about all the problems on the internet. I then noticed that yes, there is some smoke with wax lube, more with alox tumble lube. I did still notice smoke with powder coat and hitek, but I can also see some with jacketed bullets too. I don't notice any smoke when shooting, no matter the method. Smoke to me is 110 grains of blackpowder, and bullet lube contributes next to nothing. Many people have different expectations.

Accuracy for me has always been best with wax lubes. I did get very good accuracy with powder coated bullets. Enough people have shown me, that I have to believe coated bullets can at least match wax lube bullet accuracy at least most of the time. I should do some more comparisons now that I have really fine tuned some loads of mine. For rifle shooters, this can vary again based on expectations. If all you want is 1.5 MOA with an accurate rifle, any method is very capable of that accuracy. If you look at the top level cast bullet rifle shooters, they universally use wax lubes. I can only speculate this is because they can't get better accuracy with any other method. These are guys shooting under MOA at very high velocities for rifles. The guy from Mountain Molds has a lot of information on this, as well as Larry Gibson, and a number of others on this board. Not me though, I'm very happy with 1.5 moa accuracy. So you may ask, why not shoot coated bullets then? Well, I don't see any reason to. I do ask for top level accuracy with handguns, and only got that with wax lubes. So I also wax lube my rifle rounds.

I'll talk about some of the bad I've seen for both wax lube and coated. For wax lubes, there is a limit to what they can handle. Even with a gas check, 40,000 PSI is asking a lot of anything but a very hard alloy. I've got some loads that I cast with 20-1 alloy, and I'm sure are up there in pressure, and I just accept they leave minor lead fouling. Accuracy maintains for at least 15 shots, and the fouling cleans out easy, so I see no reason to worry about it. The bulk of what I shoot do not foul a bore. There is wash, and some powder residue, but I could shoot thousands of rounds, and accuracy and reliability would never change. The very soft alloys is one area I believe coated bullets have a real advantage. If done correctly, lead should never touch the bore with a coated bullet. The problem with coated is it also changes the dimensions of the bullet. The above mentioned 20-1 bullet, if coated, would no longer fit in the gun. You could buy a mold with coating in mind too, so they may be a moot point. The other thing I notice, is that leading is telling you something. Something is beyond its limits. If you take away that telltale, you could be shooting with inferior bullets and never know it. If you are ok shooting a one-size-fits-many bullet, and are ok with mediocre accuracy in some guns, then coated may be a good way to go. They are essentially an easy-bake homemade plated bullet. I personally like that I can customize bullets for certain guns, and get all I can from them. There seems to be an idea that jacketed bullets can be more accurate than cast bullets. Maybe in precision rifle shooting this is true, but in handguns, I have not found this to be the case. In fact, I usually find a FMJ to be one of the least accurate bullets. A custom fitted cast bullet is extremely accurate, I've never had a jacketed bullet do better, although a jacketed bullet is plug-and-play. You pay a lot for that convenience. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the smell. I like the smell of alox myself, some don't. The smell of many wax lubes like TAC1 is heavenly. Anyone who doesn't love the smell of a good wax lube ain't right. Coated bullets on the other hand smell foul. Kind of like a freshly laid tar road, but with a hint of burning plastic. While it has no effect on shooting, it is not pleasing at all.

I won't get into the time it takes to do each method, as there is a decently fast way to do each. I will talk about the learning curve, as someone who learned to do each on his own. Tumble lube is fairly easy. It took a few tries to figure out how much to add without it being too much or too little, but otherwise is hard to really screw up. Most people, myself included, use WAY too much to begin with. Once you realize it takes so little, it is a very easy method with no equipment besides a push through bullet sizer needed. Wax lube is a no-brainer, but the methods to apply them vary greatly. I started with pan lubing, better known as pain lubing. I still pan lube, and dip lube, but doing more than 100 bullets is no fun at all. Instead, most people would benefit from a lubesizer. Some claim these are very expensive, and they are new. Not long after I started, I went to a flea market, and found a Lyman 450 for $25. I still use it. It is a true one and done tool, and can be found used easily. Coating requires at the very least some kind of oven. Toaster ovens can be had for cheap, about the same as a used lubesizer. Depending on the method, you will also need some various trays, plastic BBs, and containers. Some you may have, some not. I found coating easy enough to do. I did the shake and bake method with BB's. I did make somewhat of a mess, but I could make a mess with anything you give me. The hard part was standing the bullets up without disturbing the coating. I never did try not standing them up, and I've seen varied results of doing such. Some get good results, but many seem to produce sub-par bullets. Based on what I have seen on this forum, there are every bit as many problems for new casters with coating, as there is with wax lube. Maybe more so, as besides the usual bullet fit, brass prep problems, they also need to figure out how to get a good coating, and fully cured. No method is difficult, but I'd say tumble lube is easiest, followed by wax lube, and coating is the most difficult.

The last thing I want to touch on is sizers, which are some of the most important tools a caster uses, no matter the method. While I would recommend a used Lyman or similar down-and-up lubesizer to a new caster, they are not without fault. I know many get them to work with flat top punches and flat point bullets. I did get the flat punches to work sometimes, but overall, they have been a failure. They are not easy to use. Instead, I highly recommend you get a fitted top punch. This can not always be done with Lee design bullets, but often can. If I buy a mold from someone like Accurate or NOE, I always buy the top punch to match. The push through sizers are vastly superior for the purpose of sizing a bullet. One punch fits all, and bullets self-center in the die. They are usually way faster too, although you need to lube/coat in a separate step most of the time. The Star is the exception, and even used are quite expensive. I own one, and they are not without faults either. Both Lee and NOE now offer very cheap bushing type push through sizers, and they are great.

All that said, at the moment I mostly use wax lubed bullets, with some tumble lube. I have not shot a coated bullet in some time. They don't offer me much advantage.

[murf205]

Well, I figured I would try "FLAMING", since no one else has,,,

Hand taped, of course,,,







This is all that I know on the subject,,,,,,,,,,

Now that's what a plow/flame ought to look like!!

[ryanmattes]

I never found alox lube to be sticky,

Some of this, I'm sure, has to do with location. If you live in Michigan, wax and alox may be neat and clean. In Texas it's a mess. This summer I had to keep upping the pure wax content of my lube to about 80% wax just to keep it from sagging out of my bullets just sitting there there on the table.

My pan lube process involved cooling to room temp and then an hour in the fridge before I could cut out the bullets, otherwise the lube would pull out when you dropped the bullet from the cutter. You need the bullets "cold" to keep the lube in them, where "cold" is 20 degrees cooler than room temp. Because room temp in my garage was 106.

There's no such thing as needing to warm your alox here, unless you keep it in the fridge. And even then, it just means setting it out on your bench for 10 minutes. In Texas, cast bullets are body temp just sitting on the shelf.

We do have winter here, though. It's about 6 weeks long and involves a lot of rain.

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[megasupermagnum]

At a certain point I think AC would be a good thing. A Texas summer definitely qualifys. I don't have AC, and my reloading room can get to 90-95 on certain days. I can't load on those days, but not because of the bullet. Besides the sweat, powder sticks to everything, you can't wish it all into the case. I would need a strong fan, making weighing powder impossible. There's plenty else which hot days make miserable. My bullet lube does not get soft until 110 or so degrees, but does run decent through the lube sizer at 70 degree room temp. It doesn't truly melt until over 160-170. I have never had lube melt out of a loaded round. Even hot cars should pose no threat, just keep the ammo out of the direct sun. Under the seats, it doesn't get that horribly hot.

[charlie b]

Might not get hot under the seats in Minnesota during the summer, but, out here it does.

[ryanmattes]

You get used to the heat. What sucks is when you have to do something out in the sun in that weather. Heat stroke us a real risk

What we can't handle here is cold. We've had the heat on for a couple weeks, and it was 65 today.

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[Larry Gibson]

I doubt Texas gets any hotter than here in Arizona. But then I use 450s to lube my cast bullets with 2500+, BAC and some with Javelina. The lube doesn't run out at all. I went several years lubing and loading in my man cave where it got to 95 - 100 degrees during the day for several weeks during the summer. The heat wasn't a problem with the lube but it was to me so several years ago I had AC put in. I keep it around 75 degrees there in the man cave ]garage under the house] now during the time it's 110+ degrees outside. Any less and it's too cool when you're climatized to 100+ degrees. No problems with the lubed bullets shooting them in 120+ heat either.

[Jim22]

"... if I start PC'ing and equals more money wasted." Maybe I'm different but I think if something makes my efforts better it's not money wasted. Instead it is money well spent. I have not tried powder coating but I am ready to try. I found a toaster oven cheap and have ordered some PC powder. When I get going I will have some new challenges just like I did when reloading and boolit casting.

[charlie b]

Grew up in Phx. You can get used to it. Am glad I don't live there anymore

[Mal Paso]

I doubt Texas gets any hotter than here in Arizona. But then I use 450s to lube my cast bullets with 2500+, BAC and some with Javelina. The lube doesn't run out at all. I went several years lubing and loading in my man cave where it got to 95 - 100 degrees during the day for several weeks during the summer. The heat wasn't a problem with the lube but it was to me so several years ago I had AC put in. I keep it around 75 degrees there in the man cave ]garage under the house] now during the time it's 110+ degrees outside. Any less and it's too cool when you're climatized to 100+ degrees. No problems with the lubed bullets shooting them in 120+ heat either.

I never understood the AZ restaurants and stores with 65F air conditioning when it's 110F outside. From 65F to a 125F car and wait for the air conditioning. All my short trips around Phoenix I'd just leave the car windows open and let it be hot.

I use a soft lube and never had any troubles even above 110F. I remember one afternoon at Ben Avery Shooting Facility it was so hot the guns would get too hot to shoot, I had to change guns and wait for the other to cool. No lube failure though.

[Texas by God]

It gets hot enough in a vehicle here to melt the lube from .22 ammo and explode butane lighters but my alox lubed bullets do ok in my metal workshop in the shade. My truck gun is a 22-250 so no worry in the summer about melting lube.

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[Lloyd Smale]

Some of this, I'm sure, has to do with location. If you live in Michigan, wax and alox may be neat and clean. In Texas it's a mess. This summer I had to keep upping the pure wax content of my lube to about 80% wax just to keep it from sagging out of my bullets just sitting there there on the table.

My pan lube process involved cooling to room temp and then an hour in the fridge before I could cut out the bullets, otherwise the lube would pull out when you dropped the bullet from the cutter. You need the bullets "cold" to keep the lube in them, where "cold" is 20 degrees cooler than room temp. Because room temp in my garage was 106.

There's no such thing as needing to warm your alox here, unless you keep it in the fridge. And even then, it just means setting it out on your bench for 10 minutes. In Texas, cast bullets are body temp just sitting on the shelf.

We do have winter here, though. It's about 6 weeks long and involves a lot of rain.

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I live in michigan and gave up on alox because i had a bunch of 38s loaded with 105 lees tumble lubed and stored in my barn all summer. Obviously it gets hot enough even here because the alox melted and contaminated the powder and after about the 3 squib i started pulling bullets and found about every one had a glob of alox an powder on the base of the bullet. Had to pull down two coffee cans full of them to get my brass back. Only way id use alox again is if i was loading today to shoot tommarow.

[Forrest r]

Sizing bullets in the heat is 1 thing.

Using those traditionally lubed bullets in a wide range of heat is another thing all together. Words like lube purge start to enter the vocabulary.

For some odd reason pc'd bullets are not affected by lube purge.

Same goes when using javelina or nra 50/50 lubes in revolvers. The hotter it is outside the more smoke in the air & soot on the revolvers. Some people like wiping their revolvers down & washing their hands every +/- 100 rounds.

It impressive how far people have gone in this thread to either prove or disprove advantages (if any) of a pc'd bullet. Myself I could care less what anyone uses but it has been entertaining readings.

[anothernewb]

Well, I guess I'll add my .02 to the mix. I shoot almost entirely indoors in the winter.
As many of the regular shooters have also switched, there's been a significant reduction in smoke vs when we all used traditional lube.
At 50' I have noticed no difference in accuracy among the several calibers I reload. I have also not altered my load data either.

Regarding loading - I find the coated bullets just plain nicer to handle than wax lubed.

That being said, I wouldn't tell anyone to stop using traditional lube if that's what they prefer.

[gnappi]

Beside the long term bullet storage issues, cleanliness of handling and clean bore issues, no smoke caused by lube, not needing a base heater, loading to higher velocity, not having the sizer or seating dies clumped with lube, not having to close off holes in sizing dies, or needing to buy lube, my LOA will never EVER change in the bullet seating operation due to wax buildup in it.

The last is the best reason for it, if that were the only one I'd still not use wax.

For 40+ years I used wax based lubes of all types looking for lube nirvana, there's not enough money that would get me to switch back... all that wax lube I bought way back goes in the furnace now.

[waksupi]

Sizing bullets in the heat is 1 thing.

Using those traditionally lubed bullets in a wide range of heat is another thing all together. Words like lube purge start to enter the vocabulary.

For some odd reason pc'd bullets are not affected by lube purge.

Same goes when using javelina or nra 50/50 lubes in revolvers. The hotter it is outside the more smoke in the air & soot on the revolvers. Some people like wiping their revolvers down & washing their hands every +/- 100 rounds.

It impressive how far people have gone in this thread to either prove or disprove advantages (if any) of a pc'd bullet. Myself I could care less what anyone uses but it has been entertaining readings.

Ah, lube purging. It's nice to not have to chase loads for different temperatures.

[Larry Gibson]

Another test;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-high-velocity

[dverna]

Ah, lube purging. It's nice to not have to chase loads for different temperatures.

Now that I am old and lazy...(wiser??)...lube purge is no longer a factor. The only time I must shoot in bad conditions is when I hunt. And I hunt with jacketed bullets. The rest of my shooting is done at 35-90 degrees. I may get lube purging but I am oblivious to it.

There was a fellow years ago who did lube testing at -20. I have not seen him post for a long time but he did a lot of work and it was interesting to read. I learned a lot....learned lubed cast bullets are a PITA if you need great performance over a wide temperature range.

Then there were the Three Amigos (IIRC) who worked on a "do it all" lube. Wide temperature range and no first shot flier. Pages and pages of trials and recipes. Dedicated men that invested many hours over cauldrons of stinky junk to make the ideal lube. And I learned a lot. Learned that it was a lot of work for little gain for what I needed. Jacketed bullets for when it matters are so much better and in the long run less expensive.

I used to shoot over 15k cast bullets a year and I needed productivity and quality. As a result I am "stuck" with a Star and lubing bullets. I am no Larry Gibson, but find myself in the same boat. There is just no incentive to change. I will try BBL if I can shoot unsized bullets. If I have to size anyway, I will stay with the Star. I must be lucky, as I do not see the problems other experience with lubed bullets.

But PC has its place so I do not discount it. And HiTek as well. In the end the more information we have the better choices we can make to suit our particular needs.

[fredj338]

"... if I start PC'ing and equals more money wasted." Maybe I'm different but I think if something makes my efforts better it's not money wasted. Instead it is money well spent. I have not tried powder coating but I am ready to try. I found a toaster oven cheap and have ordered some PC powder. When I get going I will have some new challenges just like I did when reloading and boolit casting.

Not a lot of $$$ needed to do quality PC. A cheap toaster oven, some food grade plastic tubs & ASBB. Then a way to size them, I prefer sizing my bullets to uniform dia. PC is cheap too. 1# will last you for 1000s of bullets. I can coat 300-400 with 1 rounded tsp of powder. There is almost no waste shake & bake.