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Thread: Load development for a Charter Arms Bulldog

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Load development for a Charter Arms Bulldog

    I'm working up a defense load for my Bulldog. Below is the first chronograph data I've collected.

    Weapon is the standard blackened Bulldog in 44 special obviously.

    First load: 5 round string, Rimrock 185g, SWCHP, 7.7g Unique, AV 768 ft/s, SD 4 ft/s, APF 142, 242 Ft/Lbs energy.

    Second load: 10 round string, 200g RNFP, 7.0g Unique, AV 766 ft/s, SD 22 ft/s, APF 153, 260 Ft/Lbs energy.

    I prefer the 200g load over the 185g load. The barrel doesn't seem long enough to to take advantage of the extra .7g powder. The data seems to confirm that theory. Cracking 800 fps with the 200 grain load is the target and I would appreciate recommendations. I've tried 240g and 250g loads and the recoil is just to harsh in such a small gun. I even tried the old standard of 7.5g Unique behind a Keith 250g SWC, which according to Brian Pearce the Bulldog can handle, but the recoil, oh my.

    Thanks,
    Stephen

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Groo's Avatar
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    Groo here
    Given the weight and barrel length.
    I would think a low speed full wadcutter in the 200 to 240 gr range would fill the bill...
    600 fps [true] would be enough for closer range 10 /15 yds.
    You are trading weight for speed [ you have a short barrel] so , a flat nose to cause damage and slower speed to reduce blow through.
    Ps. in a 44 spec ,,, 200 gr at 800fps could be used for deer inside 35 yds or so.....

  3. #3
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    My two are older and have .432 throats.

    If yours is a newer one, do you know what they measure?
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  4. #4
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    I'd pick the boolit ya want to use, and load the max. charge for it out of a manual.

    Without splitting hairs, or overthinking this:
    I figure any unarmored target hit with anything in .44 cal. will seriously reconsider their present course of action and location.
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    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


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  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have not measured the throats.

    I'm thinking the Rimrock 200g DEWC might be the best choice. It would be interesting to see if a faster powder would squeeze a little more velocity out of the Charters short barrel.

    Later,
    Stephen

  6. #6
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    Here are predicted terminal ballistics for your 200 grain load:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You have more penetration than the law allows and no more wound mass than a .38 Special target wadcutter from a J-frame snubby.

    Turn that same bullet around and load it base-forward like a wadcutter at the same 766 f/s and it should look more like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Now, you have all the penetration you need, but 50% more wound mass and more energy on target. If recoil is an issue, you could drop 100 f/s off the velocity and still have a fierce defense load.
    Last edited by pettypace; 11-23-2020 at 05:10 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    This is very interesting data. I think the 200g wadcutter will be my boolit of choice. Out of curiosity what does a standard 9mm ball round look like on your graph and what do you mean "more than the law allows"?

    Based on the data provided dropping a bit of velocity might be the ticket. I like to practice with the ammo I carry. Having the ability to shoot 100 rds on the range and still being able to feel my hands is appealing.

    Edited to add, what would the ballistics look like at 700 ft/s with a 200g wadcutter?

    Thanks,
    Stephen

  8. #8
    Boolit Master smkummer's Avatar
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    I have the 4” target bulldog. I am either shooting the 245 Lyman round nose or 245 Keith. I use either a max load from Lyman’s 49th of 700X or bullseye. I am guessing 750-800 as my chrono is on the blink. 231 would also be a good powder in your 3” gun? I can stand those loads but your absolutely right, the skeeter load would be painful. I believe I shot one cylinder load of those and that was enough.My gun shoots to the sights, of course I could adjust the sights with my target model. I may have to try some minimum cowboy loads with a 200 FP, to see what fun I am missing.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Led View Post
    This is very interesting data. I think the 200g wadcutter will be my boolit of choice. Out of curiosity what does a standard 9mm ball round look like on your graph and what do you mean "more than the law allows"?

    Based on the data provided dropping a bit of velocity might be the ticket. I like to practice with the ammo I carry. Having the ability to shoot 100 rds on the range and still being able to feel my hands is appealing.

    Edited to add, what would the ballistics look like at 700 ft/s with a 200g wadcutter?

    Thanks,
    Stephen
    Here's what 9mm ball might look like:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    All I meant by "more penetration than the law allows" is that anything over 18" is beyond the FBI recommendation of 12" to 18" of penetration in validated 10% ordnance gelatin.

    And here's the 200 grain wadcutter at 700 f/s:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The 37 grams of wound mass is about all you can get from a non-expanding .44 and about the same as the best expanding 9mm or .38.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks for the input pettypace. I think I've found the bullet and velocity I'll be using. 200g at 700 ft/s will be tame enough to practice with often. The best load in the world doesn't mean anything if you can't hit the target and I don't have to worry about a .44 not expanding.

    Edited to add, I find it interesting that 65 ft/s less velocity only reduced penetration by an inch.

    Thanks,
    Stephen

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I got my first Bulldog, a 3", in '75 and added the 4" Target Bulldog soon afterward. I worked with everything available at the time, from the Lee 116 gr WC (!) to their 255 gr SWC, including the 208 WC, 210 SWCHP and 210 SWC, and including a 429421. I went fairly hot with some of the development, and found that the 3" Bulldog likes to keyhole when you get too heavy a boolit going too fast; I theorize that the muzzle flip exerts a vertical rotation to the departing slug. I worked mostly with Bullseye and Unique. Two of the 116s over 6.0/Unique was a fairly tractable load and the "two holes for the price of one" won me a lot of bets against my agency's range creeps who were in the habit of sharking beer money out of rookies... The only jacketed bullet I ever got to expand worth beans was the (sadly discontinued) Speer 225 gr 3/4 jacket SWCHP. The similar 240 would almost go fast enough but I ran into the recoil wall with any of the 240s before they would 'work'. When Speer developed the GDHPs, they dropped the JSWCs like crazy girlfriends, but while they were available, I worked that bullet up in the 4" M29 to 10.0/Unique and carried that load forever. I still have a partial box that I load in the 29 when I carry it, and a precious few of the bullets rat-holed. I found out that both Jim Cirillo and Jerry Miculek had worked up that identical load; JM said it was his favorite .44 Mag load, and one year I killed the South Texas Mini-Slam with it - a whitetail, a javelina and a coyote. The fully exposed, butter-soft core just makes this genius bullet outstanding. If anyone still has any of those I'd sure like to buy 'em.
    I eventually obtained the said M29 I carried for decades, and recently found a 4" 624 and had to rediscover that despite the N frame, the skinny barrel means the Skeeter loads are on the ragged edge of high-speed controllability and shooter comfort. I had some with 8.0/Unique and a 429421 and after shooting a few in the 624, ended up shooting them out of a pair of 4-5/8" Super Blackhawks and my B92, then loaded some with 7.0/Unique for the 624 instead.
    When I warm the Bulldogs up lately, I use the Lee 208 WC, the Lee 180 RN, the RimRock 200 DEWC or similar over about 4.0-4.5/231. This shoots pretty mildly. But if I were going to carry either of my Bulldogs 'seriously' again, I would work with 231, 700X or TiteGroup, in the neighborhood of five-ish grains, and the M-P HBWC out of a fairly soft alloy, inverted 'cup point' style. The fifteen I put in the 3" Bulldog and its speedloaders when I carry it are of that type. The inverted HWBC shatters the first water jug, splits the second and stops in the fourth, with textbook blossoming of the hollow, and shoots to the sights as well as any other load I've tried in it.
    Good luck finding your perfect Bulldog load - Ed <><

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Led View Post
    I find it interesting that 65 ft/s less velocity only reduced penetration by an inch.
    There's some "rounding" involved in generating the graphs. And different penetration models can easily differ by an inch for the same data. For that matter, bullets from the same load and gun fired into the same block of gello could easily differ by an inch. But in general, changes in velocity don't effect penetration as much as you might expect while changes in bullet weight effect penetration more than you might expect.

    BTW, if you're interested in bullet penetration models, grab a copy of Quantitative Ammunition Selection by Charles Schwartz (aka The_Schwartz, here). It's a bargain.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Ditch the unique!!!!

    Not much velocity in the snubnosed revolvers for the pressures unique creates. Simply put, a lot of pressure/bark for little return. Unique does better in longer bbl's along with having a snap/bite to it in light weight sbubnosed revolvers.

    2400 is a better choice, has more of a push to it instead of a crack that makes for a softer recoil while producing excellent results. Haven't done any testing lately, here's the results from my last testing.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I was mainly interested in the top left bullet. The fbi used to use a hp hb swc in their "fbi/38spl loads".
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Buffalo bore has a 158gr (20a/20) hot 158gr load that is supposed to do 1000fps in snubnosed 38spl's.
    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

    So I cast up some hb swc's/429422's and used a forester hp tool with a 60* center drill (3/16") to put hp's in the cast/pc'd hb swc's.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    BB has a 158gr/1000fps 38spl load, the fbi had a 158gr hp hb swc load. But neither of them hold a candle to a snubnosed bulldog with a 210gr hp hb swc doing 1000fps+.

    I've owned/carried/used ca bulldogs since the 80's & have tried a lot of different bullets/loads over the decades. At the end of the day I prefer 180gr to 220gr bullets in them being pushed with 15.5gr to 16gr of 2400.

    An excellent bullet for the bulldogs is the lyman 429215, I use the H&G version of that bullet. It's the H&G #142 that casts a 220gr swc gc bullet and a 200gr hp swc gc bullet (bottom left on bullet test picture above).
    [IMG][/IMG]
    Hard to go wrong with these bullets in the bulldogs.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I've done a little testing with different wc's/hbwc's in the bulldog's using several different powders. Sold a bunch of my 44cal wc molds off but I still have these to test with.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    162gr ='s type 2 button nosed wc
    175gr ='s type 1 flush seated wc
    220gr ='s hbwc
    200gr & 245gr ='s type 3 tapered nosed wc

    Of those wc pictured above I like the type 3 wc's the best, easer to find data for & they perform extremely well. That 200gr wc doing +/- 1000fps is a real thumper. That 220gr hbwc turned backwards doing just under 1000fps is impressive also.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Something else to keep in mind when you test wc's. They don't have to be crimped in any specific place. When testing those 220gr hbwc's in a S&W 624/target loads. Those bullets got seated flush, top lube groove, bottom lube groove, tumble lubed, 1 lube groove lubed, 2 lube grooves lubed, tl + both lube grooves. And loaded backwards just for the heck of it.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Get some 2400 and never look back.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabezaverde View Post
    My two are older and have .432 throats.

    If yours is a newer one, do you know what they measure?
    My 3 year old Bulldog has .432 throats, as well. Which I prefer, since I also own a Marlin 1894 and a RH with .432 throats. That is where I find the best accuracy. No need to size bullets for each specific firearm.

    My standard practice load for the 2.75" Bulldog is 7.0 grains of Unique with a 240 grain cast bullet. Yesterday, I went out back and shot 50+rounds. Some at 20-25 yards, using CT laser grips, DAO. Was surprised by the accuracy at the longer distances..........just as accurate as a longer barrel. The laser grips make all the difference.

    I don't care for the lighter bullets. Tried 200 grain Saeco RNFP. They shoot too low for fixed sights. I can't tell the difference in recoil, either. Yeah you can push them faster, due to increased powder, which translates to increased recoil. E=MC squared.

    I never carry cast for social work. However, I do load cast for around the acreage. This piece is my bow hunting backup. Usually, it's loaded with 240-265 RNFP, over Alliant 2400. I think the recoil impulse is less brutal with the slower powder.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Winelover

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I carry that Bulldog often, it was my backup gun when I was a peace officer. It is a strong gun with a 5 shot cylinder, the cylinder stop notches are cut between the cylinders where the metal is thicker. I however don’t enjoy shooting it too much. I carry my cast RCBS 44-250-K over the minimum load of Bullseye, and this has been my carry load for decades in this gun.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    In my 3" gp100 .44 special 4.6 grains of red dot gives 690 FPS with a commercial cast Hi-tek 240 swc that same load in my 45/8 Bisley is 750 FPS . My Bull dog is getting light strikes so I am still looking for a solution to that .
    I have replaced springs and hammer and it still light strikes. Any one have any ideas ?

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    I was getting light strikes in both my Bulldogs and installed new springs without solving it, so I installed a couple of flat washers to shim the springs. I had already slicked the innards of both guns and the shims did not increase the pull significantly. Then I did a primer evaluation and found that WLPs were the most reliable. My range .44 spl is all loaded with WLPs and I haven't had a FTF recently. Both guns have shot thousands of training blanks (Speer plastic case w/primer only) without failure despite the cushioning effect of the plastic cases; those were all WLPs. CCIs seemed the hardest.
    Then I gained 20 lbs so I could conceal the M29 more easily. By then my holster gun was a 1911 and I wish CA had brought out the .45 ACP Bulldog back then. My EDC is now either an XD45, the 1911, a 625-8-JM, the 624 or my beloved 29.
    Lately, though, I have heard that Federals are the easiest to ignite. Presuming you can find any primers, you might want to test any you can obtain against each other. That and shimming your mainspring may solve the problem.
    Ed <><
    Last edited by Old School Big Bore; 11-25-2020 at 03:35 PM. Reason: additional information

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Anyone tested .44 wadcutters for penetration on winter outdoor wear?

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Big Bore View Post
    I was getting light strikes in both my Bulldogs and installed new springs without solving it, so I installed a couple of flat washers to shim the springs. I had already slicked the innards of both guns and the shims did not increase the pull significantly. Then I did a primer evaluation and found that WLPs were the most reliable. My range .44 spl is all loaded with WLPs and I haven't had a FTF recently. Both guns have shot thousands of training blanks (Speer plastic case w/primer only) without failure despite the cushioning effect of the plastic cases; those were all WLPs. CCIs seemed the hardest.
    Then I gained 20 lbs so I could conceal the M29 more easily. By then my holster gun was a 1911 and I wish CA had brought out the .45 ACP Bulldog back then. My EDC is now either an XD45, the 1911, a 625-8-JM, the 624 or my beloved 29.
    Lately, though, I have heard that Federals are the easiest to ignite. Presuming you can find any primers, you might want to test any you can obtain against each other. That and shimming your mainspring may solve the problem.
    Ed <><
    Thanks
    I may try shimming the mainspring I have smoothed the insides and tried an extra power mainspring (that broke the transfer bar which I replaced) ww and cci primers both have the problem . My purpose is to carry on occasion so I want it 100% with any primer. Cylinder end play is good so it may be a firing pin issue. I am about at the end of my shade tree smithing ideas.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    @onelight, Check the headspace on your bulldog. I think you can do it with automotive type feeler gauges in a pinch or buy proper gauges.

    @Good Cheer, I'm going to be rolling up a 200g WC load at about 750 ft/s from my bulldog. I'll test it against some water jugs within the next month.

    Later,
    Stephen

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check