Load development for a Charter Arms Bulldog

[WDW44]

That should be a great bullet for the Bulldog.
I actually tried a cylinder shim kit on it and with the thinnest shim it was to tight
I would reeealy like it to work I may have to send it in and see if CA can get it working. I bought it used and probably have more in it than if I had ordered a new one. As it is I would not sell it or trade it . So it's mine working out or not.

The older ones were GREAT light weight little Loudmouths, the new ones seem to have some problems BUT, I have been in contact with CA and they are always willing to make their guns RIGHT! Call, they will talk with you and advise how to send it in, or what else they may advise. They are GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE family operation, and their warrenty is above the norm! WDW44

[WDW44]

Been eons since I even gave it a Thought...But, I am confident in my very Old, very well used, Bulldog with 240 Speer Swaged SWC's over ~ 4.0 gr of Red Dot... Be a silly thing to Step in Front Of!!!

Red Dot is good for the forty four, but curious, why do you use a jacketed round? Buying good cast Boolits are just as good and cheaper in most cases. I have cast hundreds of thousands back when I was a young shooter, now I just buy from MATT'S BULLETs. They cast MANY different weights and forms of good ones. I especially like his HBWC, and Wadcutters in general. 4-4.5 grains of Red Dot seems to work very well with them. Take care Ed, WDW44

[WDW44]

Here is some 44 spec data from a 21/2" CA a 3" gp100 and a 45/8 Ruger Bisley. Starline cases , WW primers .
5.2 grains Red Dot . Hi-Tek .430 SNS 200 rnfp , roll crimped in crimp groove . 21/2" , 773 SD 13.1
3" 800 FPS SD 6.8 , 45/8 860 FPS SD 14.6
With a Hi-Tek Summers .430 , 240 SWC 4.6 grains Red Dot , 21/2" 688 FPS SD 14.8 , 3" 690 FPS SD 6.8 , 45/8 759 FPS SD 7.6

GREAT info Mr. Onelight! Those loads show real promise, and I will implement them soon. Thanks for the reply! One aside is, those different guns, with different twist rates, can have a big effect on velocities and accuracy with the same load. Not that that is a big enough deal to make a big deal about.

[WDW44]

(Edited with some correction)

I have new chronograph data from the Bulldog.

First load is a RimRock 200g solid wadcutter, 4.3g Trail Boss, WSP, PMC Brass.

20 round string, Ave 684 Ft/s, ES 72 ft/s, SD 15 ft/s, 207 lbs/ft.

Why trail boss you ask, no real reason, I just wanted to try it and see if I could hit my velocity target of 700 ft/s. The load shot very well and is so close to my 700 ft/s target. The boolit was crimped in the crimp groove which put the slug very deep in the case. Next batch I won't seat as deep and up the charge just a little bit.

Next is a RimRock 185g SWCHP with 7.3 g Trail Boss

9 round string (The chronograph missed one), 778 ft/s Ave, ES 60 ft/s, SD 22 ft/s, 248 ft/lbs.

This load also shot very well and exceeded my velocity target. Recoil on this load was more than the 200g load but still within my tolerance. The RimRock SWCHP has a huge cavity. It would be interesting to see if it would expand at these speeds.

Notes:

Both loads were at 100% load density.
Burn for both loads was nice and clean.

Thanks,
Stephen

GREAT INFO Stephen! Thanks, it will be put to use in my 2 1/2 Dog and 4.2" Target dog too!

[Bass Ackward]

I use a trick I learned as a kid. Hollow point expansion can be …. expedited and exaggerated by melting a candle and filling the hole. Then just scrape level with a knife. Creates hydraulic pressure on impact that NO lead hardness can restrain regardless of velocity.

[racepres]

Red Dot is good for the forty four, but curious, why do you use a jacketed round? Buying good cast Boolits are just as good and cheaper in most cases. I have cast hundreds of thousands back when I was a young shooter, now I just buy from MATT'S BULLETs. They cast MANY different weights and forms of good ones. I especially like his HBWC, and Wadcutters in general. 4-4.5 grains of Red Dot seems to work very well with them. Take care Ed, WDW44

Oh My No.. The Speer240 Swaged is a Soft Lead, boolit!! I figger the Soft is a Plus in this Loading... I guess I could cast dead soft 240's...But, I have these, and they work really Well. When I shoot for Fun..I use the Lee 200RF, cast soft...andStill do Not have a Favorite Load.. Prolly work with BE-86 and certainly New Nitro-100 NF.. Luckily, I like Nitro 100 NF Better than Trail Boss for leisurely loadings!! But, Not as Much as Red Dot, which is Unobtainium just now around here

[FergusonTO35]

The older ones were GREAT light weight little Loudmouths, the new ones seem to have some problems BUT, I have been in contact with CA and they are always willing to make their guns RIGHT! Call, they will talk with you and advise how to send it in, or what else they may advise. They are GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE family operation, and their warrenty is above the norm! WDW44

All my late model Charters have been great. I did have a .22 Pathfinder for a bit that would shoot and function perfectly but was bulging brass more than I cared for. Contacted CA about it and they sent me a shipping label. Door to door was only two weeks or so. The new cylinder didn't bulge brass as much but I ended up trading the revolver on a rifle not long after.

[pettypace]

Two of the 116 gr WCs over 6.0/Unique was a fairly tractable load and the "two holes for the price of one" won me a lot of bets against my agency's range creeps who were in the habit of sharking beer money out of rookies...

Although usually dismissed as a gimmick, IMHO a two-projectile load from a .38 or .44 snubby has potential far beyond winning bets for beer money.

Old School Big Bore doesn't say what velocity he was getting from those two 116 grain wadcutters. But at 750 f/s they should be just shy of meeting the FBI's 12" minimum penetration goal. Trade the 116 grain WCs for NOE's 150 grainers and 625 f/s should give 12" penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin. And if you're still worried about marginal penetration, just use a stubby little "as cast mushroom" instead of the wadcutter and bare gel penetration will be well within FBI specs.

The downside is that recoil will be all that you (or your Bulldog) will want and you probably won't win any 50 yard slow fire matches with the load.

So, why bother? Especially why bother when a 220 grain HBWC at 650 f/s (and loaded as intended) will give 18" of penetration, as much wound mass as the classic "FBI load," deliver all the accuracy your Bulldog has to offer, and be gentle enough on both you and the gun to make practice almost enjoyable.

It's worth bothering because two projectiles could give you as much wound mass as the best JHP (assuming the JHP works as intended) as well as an increased probability (that has not been well-considered or appreciated) of hitting something "vital."

[LouisianaMan]

Although usually dismissed as a gimmick, IMHO a two-projectile load from a .38 or .44 snubby has potential far beyond winning bets for beer money.

Old School Big Bore doesn't say what velocity he was getting from those two 116 grain wadcutters. But at 750 f/s they should be just shy of meeting the FBI's 12" minimum penetration goal. Trade the 116 grain WCs for NOE's 150 grainers and 625 f/s should give 12" penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin. And if you're still worried about marginal penetration, just use a stubby little "as cast mushroom" instead of the wadcutter and bare gel penetration will be well within FBI specs.

The downside is that recoil will be all that you (or your Bulldog) will want and you probably won't win any 50 yard slow fire matches with the load.

So, why bother? Especially why bother when a 220 grain HBWC at 650 f/s (and loaded as intended) will give 18" of penetration, as much wound mass as the classic "FBI load," and all the accuracy your Bulldog has to offer?

It's worth bothering because two projectiles could give you as much wound mass as the best JHP (assuming the JHP works as intended) as well as an increased probability (that has not been well-considered or appreciated) of hitting something "vital."

Hello again from "down on the bayou"!! Have long enjoyed and profited from your discussions of wound mass and penetration, dual projectiles, and kindred considerations. What would you think of combining a 150g and a 116g at 700-ish? Think they'd hit fairly close to the same POI, with the 150 penetrating well and the 116 providing enhanced disruption?

I share your sense that the terminal effects of a dual projectile load merit closer examination (or perhaps just broader publication of existing studies). It stands to reason that 2 bullets striking some distance apart will double the chances of hitting something critical, assuming adequate penetration. I also suppose that the nearly simultaneous impact of two bullets in close proximity to each other could expand the permanent wound cavities, as overlapping stretch cavities and wound tracks could engender a lacerating effect. It's my understanding that buckshot commonly inflicts that type of damage, and automatic weapons certainly can do so.

While I'm guessing, supposing, and hypothesizing, here's another idea: even if "hydrostatic shock" per se does not occur at handgun velocities, it's apparent that the human body's network of nerve endings, synapses, etc., provides an infinite range of possible reactions to being struck by gunfire. Sometimes the guy seems bulletproof, apparently not reacting to gunshot wounds; others seem to have been struck by lightning and flung wildly about; others sledgehammered to the ground; others cowed by feeling or seeing the results of a bullet impact. Oft-discussed in recent years is the "psychological stop," but perhaps a differing nervous effect is triggered in some cases, amplifying one's involuntary reaction to being hit beyond the known mechanisms of blood loss, organ or skeletal damage, or CNS damage. Is this the secret of the double- or triple-tap, the oft-remarked enhanced effects of multiple impacts in rapid succession?

Simply put: could the use of dual-projectile loads increase the chances of overloading the shootee's nervous system with multiple simultaneous "RED ALERT! warnings," thereby essentially "shocking" him into incapacitation, confusion, hesitation, or retreat? Freeze or flight instead of fight?

Put still another way: is the "psychological stop" necessarily a result of conscious or subconscious response to being shot? Or is it, in some cases, a result of the type of sensory overload I've attempted to describe here? Could a rapid 5-shot burst (with 10 impacts) from a snubbie thus create a "nervous reaction" resembling a mag dump of 10-15 rounds of ball ammo from an automatic of similar caliber?

[pettypace]

Lots of good questions, Louisiana Man -- but most above my pay grade. Bullet penetration and wound mass (by MacPherson's recipe) are about as far as I'm willing to venture into the morass of the stopping power debate.

What would you think of combining a 150g and a 116g at 700-ish? Think they'd hit fairly close to the same POI, with the 150 penetrating well and the 116 providing enhanced disruption?

Dunno! But the POI part could be easily tested -- especially if one of the bullets cut a cleaner hole so you could tell which hit where. As for "enhanced disruption," I suspect there might not be any. Some of Fackler's wound profiles show massive permanent cavities with pieces of "Detached Muscles" within -- but only for high energy rifle bullets with serious expansion, fragmentation or yaw. His only multi-projectile wound profile (#4 buck at 1350 f/s) shows no "Detached Muscles" and it looks to me that he intended to show the "Permanent Cavity" as only the actual path of individual projectiles. Maybe hard, sharp-edged wadcutters would lacerate stretched tissue where soft, round shot slips by. But in Clear Ballistic gel I never saw any evidence of that. Even when video clearly showed a beer can sized temporary cavity, the final wound tracks from two-projectile .38 and .44 WC loads looked like they were made with knitting needles.

Simply put: could the use of dual-projectile loads increase the chances of overloading the shootee's nervous system with multiple simultaneous "RED ALERT! warnings," thereby essentially "shocking" him into incapacitation, confusion, hesitation, or retreat? Freeze or flight instead of fight?

Dunno this either. But MacPherson (in Bullet Penetration) hypothesizes that there should be some "adequate" amount of wound mass required to incapacitate an attacker with a "non-vital" wound. He pegs this at about 40 grams based on a less-than-convincing argument involving the Thompson-LaGarde tests on beef critters in 1904. But MacPherson clearly states that if 40 grams isn't enough, then it might take a lot more to incapacitate a determined attacker.

For perspective, 40 grams of wound mass is about what you might get from the highly regarded .38 Special FBI load or the best 9mm JHPs. It's also about the same as a heavy .44 WC at modest velocity from a Bulldog without straining shooter or gun. A two projectile load of 150 grain WCs might gain 10-15% in wound mass at the expense of reduced penetration with increased recoil and wear and tear on the Bulldog. Again, if marginal penetration is the concern, a slightly rounded bullet shape (like Accurate Mold's 43-150M) solves that problem with even more wound mass.

Could a rapid 5-shot burst (with 10 impacts) from a snubbie thus create a "nervous reaction" resembling a mag dump of 10-15 rounds of ball ammo from an automatic of similar caliber?

I'm not sure about the "nervous reaction" part. But there can't be anything good on the wrong end of a cylinder full of two-projectile loads from a Bulldog. The total calculated wound mass from the cylinder full of .44 WCs shown below is about 220 grams -- enough more than the 160 gram wound mass from a 12 gauge slug to provide food for thought.

[26Charlie]

I bought my 3" Bulldog back in the 80's, and have not shot it at anything but paper targets at 50 feet indoor range. Due to it's light weight I used loads with cast bullets around 200 gr. Velocity around 750 fps. The rifling looked shallow to me, so i favored 429215, thinking the gas check gave it more grip on the rifling. Groups were very satisfactory.
The Bulldog is a pocket pistol. S&W then came out with the 696 3" in .44 Special, which is a belt pistol. I did use 250 grain loads in that gun, the recoil not being so snappy due to its heavier weight.