Deep Ponderings with Cast Bullets

[curioushooter]

The only places I've ever hunted for deer are in the thick woods of Southern Ohio, Indiana and Northern Kentucky. I started hunting with a Ithaca Deerslayer and only took deer with 12 gauge slugs for years, all with hand cast Lee slugs or during muzzloader season .490 round balls. Several years ago Indiana allowed hunting with bottleneck rifles and Ohio has opened up to straightwalls. I continued to hunt with pistol cartridges; I took a buck this year with a 357 carbine. Basically my entire hunting experience has been short range, dense woods, mostly stalk-hunting. I think I've taken all but one or two deer on my feet and never past 100 yards.

So, I was hunting on Friday morning, the first time I ever took anybody with me to hunt (my oldest son, age 10). I was hunting a a friend's place having already taken a buck this year at another place and wanting to let that place chill for a while so my friend can hopefully get a move-in-buck and/or some does. Anyway, my other friend's place is unlike basically anywhere I've ever hunted; a big open pasture on top of a Indiana rolling hill. I found a recently downed ash tree and tucked into a spot with my son to wait for shooting time figuring a deer may present on the other side of the pasture with a good, safe and clean shot. Not ten minuites into shoting time do I spot a deer, but at the distance I could hardly tell if it was antlered or not. Having only a red-dot and no binocs I was left to surmise it was a buck from its behavior. Can't shoot another this year, darn! Then we see some does and they are likewise distant. When I put my dot over their body it appeared to cover 1/3rd to 1/2 their body. I almost couldn't believe it because the dot is supposed to be 2" at 100 yards, and it seems to be the case from my target shooting. If the dot seemed to be perhaps 6 inches wide this would mean that they were 200-300 yards away, well out of my effective range. I could just barely make out they they lacked antlers and since they were moving in a pair I assumed young does coming to visit the buck. Anwyay, they went to to provide increasingly good broadside shots but still at 200+ yards, which I wasn't going to take with 357 magnum carbine. It just didn't seem that far away where they presented when I sat down. They seemed closer, or my range estimation must just be way off. By 9AM it was clear that they had moved off property, so I went over to where they were and tried to pace it off. I gave up after I counted over 200 paces. I went home and looked it up on a satellite map tool and found out they were 260 yards or so away! Even with my hot rodded 357 magnum it would have been a ~33" drop at that range! Though the bullet would still be going about 1000 FPS.

This got me thinking that if I want to hunt long range again I need to figure out a way instead of just letting them walk on by.

There seems to be two approaches. With cast boolits it seems the logical way is a big bore heavy bullet and really work out trajectories and ranging. The other approach is to go the way of the small bore high velocity rifle with j-words. It certainly seems more straight forward with this approach, though perhaps less fun.

I am aware of countless people who have taken the latter approach, but I'd really like to hear some input from those that have taken the former, even if it was eventually abandoned for whatever reason. Is there really a reason to be married to cast bullets under the circumstances? What do people think?

[Wolfer]

I like cast in bores 30 cal and above. I’m not married to cast. I shoot jacketed in my smaller bores. Where I hunt shots over 100 yds are quite rare.
However a 30 cal rifle pushing a 180 gr boolit to 1800/2000 fps is very capable of taking deer at 200 yds. Cast as soft as you can get accuracy and a small HP will help.
All of my 30 cal rifles are essentially a 30-30. They all shoot the 311041 at around 1800 fps. 1” high at 100 puts them about 6” low at 200.
I’m not a fan of shooting at game when you have to hold over them. Targets yes.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Lots of midbore options .30-.40 that'll get you where you want to be.

This is a great thread on a 375 H&H for longer range cast hunting, but you could certainly use several more common calibers. What else have you got besides the 357?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ourney-success

[dverna]

My shots can vary from 50 yards to over 300. I use a .308 with jacketed bullets.

As your story showed, if you intend to use a slow bullet, ranging becomes more critical.

The other issue with a cast bullet is expansion. You read many posts here of folks tailoring their alloy to achieve expansion. An alloy that works well at 50-150yards, where most game is harvested, may be too hard at 300 yards and a lower velocity.

[Bazoo]

Far as I'm concerned, there ain't no shame in using jacketed bullets when the velocity calls for such.
You aught to consider swaging your own jacketed. Then you'll have all the pride in making the bullet like with cast, but all the benefits of a full patched bullet. I like cast, but I think I could warm up to jacketed more if I didn't have to buy them.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Paper patching is also an option.

[rking22]

This is where scouting and knowing the area you are hunting comes in. I like getting close, no interest in “killing a deer” way out there, so I plan my hunt to allow me the chance to get close. That probably won’t work for public land hunters but on private land it can. Also out west can be a very different thing. When I’m hunting with my revolver, I’ll only refill check a field to see if I can cutoff a feeding deer on his way to bedding area. I focus on areas I can be within 25 yards. If hunting with a scoped rifle, I still like getting close, but will check field edges. I gave up trees 2 decades ago, no fun and I no longer like the heights. Also ground hunting really requires you to know the area to chose a safe shooting lane, down range.
If you want to hunt that area, get to know the movements and patterns better, then you won’t need to shoot farther than you want. Sure, you can get a 7mm mag and 3x9 and sit over a 200 acre bean field, doesn't sound interesting to me.

[444ttd]

i remember the time that was my sons' first deer hunt. i remember their first deer. and i remember how many deer we killed with jacketed bullets. it was alot of deer!!!!!

now, i'm all for cast boolits. ranch dogs, wfn, fn, lfn, penta hp and rnhp. from 30 cal to 50(.512") cal, the cast boolit is king. i use 150 yards as my limit. i can go over, but why? its not about the kill anymore. i'm just glad to be there and the deer are secondary. i hunt(swPA) in close cover, where the range to the deer goes in feet to yards. i killed an 8pt and it was 12 feet away. on the opposite range, i killed a doe at 150+/- yards. 30-40 yards is the norm. i used to be a tree stand guy, but i'm disabled and its the ground stand fer me. no big deal, i've been killing deer on the ground since i was 13yo. i have a ground stand that used to be my tree stand. i have a ground blind that suits me. and if i'm up-n-at them, then i have plastic and aluminium seat and a primos bipod to get in the woods. i'll admit, that i have carry it(my right arm/leg are useless) so i only go about 50 yards.

i've been hunting this patch of ground for 35+ years. i guess you say that i'm one with the ground. there are places that requires your feet to travel them, but i ain't able to do it. i luv to hunt in WV, but another requires your feet and i haven't hunted WV for 8 years. face it, i can't do what i was able to do. but i have memories. alot of memories.

for jacketed bullets..........it used to be a '06 with 180gr remington rn, 270 win with 150gr rem rn, 30-30 with 170gr rem/win/fed and the 35 rem with 200gr fn rem/fed. this was used long ago factory loads. reloads go cup-n-core. you can go to bt or sst bullets, but your velocity can either mushroom the bullet(under 2800fps) or explode the bullet(over 2800fps). the hornady ftx is "supposed" to mushroom, but my experience(or my brother experiences with the 45-70 and 325gr ftx) finds it explosive. if your one to throw away a deer's shoulder, then by all means have a ftx. if your one that likes meat, then its cup-n-core for you. i don't have any mono-bullets experiences, expect in the early stages( early 1990s it was a barnes x bullet), and i'll tell you no....no.....not ever....NO!!! i have tracked a doe, shot in the lungs with the barnes x bullet, 350 yards+/- of crawling on my knees thru the rhododendron to tell you that they aren't a God sent bullet. now nearing three decades later, the mono bullet should be a "mushroom" bullet, but i remember and still tell you no....no...not ever....NO!!! besides, their expensive!!!!!!!!

i have, many years ago, shot a doe at 360+/- yards. it was a one shot drop. i was using a savage m110 in 270 with 130gr hornady sp (can't remember the powder). 2 or 3 deer were at 300+ yards, 6 or 7 deer were at 200-300 yards, 14 or 15 deer were at 100-200 yards and i don't how many deer were killed at 100 yards and less. this was all with jacketed bullets.

cast boolits are easy. 150+/- yards equals one doe. 65 yards and under equals around 20ish deer. its been about 9 or 10 years ago when i first killed my cast boolit deer. i have eaten deer and i have eaten tag soup. i hate the tag soup, its like bowl of hot water sprinkled with tags!!!!!

i think that the boy would shoot jacketed bullets over cast boolits. why? simply put, the range/velocity of the bullet. when he is done with long range shootin', then its time to hunt with cast boolits. i will say that long range shootin' and hunting don't mix.

[McFred]

T\This got me thinking that if I want to hunt long range again I need to figure out a way instead of just letting them walk on by.

There seems to be two approaches. With cast boolits it seems the logical way is a big bore heavy bullet and really work out trajectories and ranging. The other approach is to go the way of the small bore high velocity rifle with j-words. It certainly seems more straight forward with this approach, though perhaps less fun.

I am aware of countless people who have taken the latter approach, but I'd really like to hear some input from those that have taken the former, even if it was eventually abandoned for whatever reason. Is there really a reason to be married to cast bullets under the circumstances? What do people think?

Seems that being comfortable shooting at distance is a product of actually shooting at distance. A big, heavy, moderate velocity bullet with a large meplat put in the vitals will still easily kill at 300 yards. If you can maintain accuracy at distance then, today, there's nothing stopping you from filling your tags with cast lead bullets.

I don't see a lot of topics discussing the newer trends and technology here on Cast Boolits, but there's a lot of "long distance" positional shooting sports made popular recently and commercial products have certainly stepped up to support that sort of shooting sport. There's a dizzying array of high quality, high BC projectiles, external ballistic/twist/stability calculators, portable weather stations/GPS, chronographs, laser range finders, and optics designed with reliable MOA/MIL elevation and windage adjustments, etc.

The tech is certainly available to support "traditional" lead projectile shooting at distance (you'll notice I didn't say "hunting"), whether or not people are interested in adapting that gadgetry to 100+ year old shooting disciplines is another matter.

It can be expensive to explore long range centerfire shooting, but there's been a push in LR shooting competitions to instead shoot .22 rimfire at "long range," which is ~250 yards. The idea is to reduce cost, appeal to a larger market through use of high quality rimfire ammo, in bolt-action rifles at more abundant, shorter, shooting ranges. .22 LR have many of the same qualities as traditional cast bullets: fairly slow velocities and blunt, low BC projectiles.

Routinely ranging targets, and making appropriate drop and windage calls at distance just ensures that you're capable and comfortable with ethical shots on game if not presented with more practical, closer shots.

For reference:
https://nrl22.org/
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ng-range-22lr/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw_rJIgocCk

[Win94ae]

When I had a mil-dot scope on my 44mag, I shot a doe at 220 yards. I knew the distances from ranging the field beforehand, and knew my holdovers from verification shooting. I was using a 240gr SWC cast bullet at 1700fps. Dropped right where it stood.
I would have taken all the same steps if I was using a jacketed bullet.

[white eagle]

when I get time to again find a load that works ALL the time
with cast for me I will use it in my 358 win.I have had great accuracy
at 50 yds but move out to 100 the consistent part falls away,can't have
that in my hunting.I use jacketed bullets in anything under 35 cal and all my
deer rifles are under that.Most my shots have been close but lately the last
couple I have gotten were well over 100 yds and some,like Mondays doe
over 200 yds so consistency is a must for me.Cast work fine in my larger bores
like my 44,475 and 50 cal.rifles and pistols but their use is limited.

[largom]

This is where scouting and knowing the area you are hunting comes in. I like getting close, no interest in “killing a deer” way out there, so I plan my hunt to allow me the chance to get close. That probably won’t work for public land hunters but on private land it can. Also out west can be a very different thing. When I’m hunting with my revolver, I’ll only refill check a field to see if I can cutoff a feeding deer on his way to bedding area. I focus on areas I can be within 25 yards. If hunting with a scoped rifle, I still like getting close, but will check field edges. I gave up trees 2 decades ago, no fun and I no longer like the heights. Also ground hunting really requires you to know the area to chose a safe shooting lane, down range.
If you want to hunt that area, get to know the movements and patterns better, then you won’t need to shoot farther than you want. Sure, you can get a 7mm mag and 3x9 and sit over a 200 acre bean field, doesn't sound interesting to me.

AGREE 100%. Shooting game at long range is not hunting! It's shooting! What is the challenge in that? Stalking is part of hunting. Do archery hunters shoot at long range?

[MT Gianni]

I hunt [harvest] in a friends field. I expect shots from 325 yards, my limit, to 25. I use jacketed bullets to hunt there. I also sneak in some river bottoms and thick pine that get cast with a 358, or 30-30. I cannot imagine hunting with out a good pair of binoculars even in the thick stuff. A 1000 yard rangefinder cost me $100 last year. I use it and like it.

[McFred]

Shooting game at long range is not hunting! It's shooting! What is the challenge in that? Stalking is part of hunting.

Meat is meat. If you're "hunting" for the thrill, you should go chase down your quarry with a pointy stick for the "sport." Some people kill animals to eat, not for the challenge, so reserve your judgements. Feel free to get as close as you like. Ethical kills are whatever dispatches the animal quickly, be it at 3 yards or 500+.

[MT Gianni]

AGREE 100%. Shooting game at long range is not hunting! It's shooting! What is the challenge in that? Stalking is part of hunting. Do archery hunters shoot at long range?

I would love to see you do a 400 yard crawl across a harvested potato field to get close enough to harvest a deer. The other option would be to buy up the adjoining pasture at $700,000 to shoot from there.

[smkummer]

I am So. Indiana as well. I belong to the Southern Indiana Rifle pistol club. Our main range range outside Borden, IN has a 200 yard berm. I sight in my 1894 rifles (44 mag, 357 and 30-30) at 100 yards. Everything else is 200 yards ( 35 Remington, 30-40 and 45-70 ( cast bullets at 1300-1800 FPS) plus traditional jacketed rounds such as 308, 270 and 30-06. The only reason I don’t sight in my 30-30 with cast at 200 yards is the original buckhorn sight totally covers the 24” metal target at 200 yards.

30-30 cast would kill at 200 yards but 35 Remington does it better. But it’s perfectly IMHO acceptable to fire a jacketed bullet out of a 30-30 with a scope for those very few 200 yard shots you may encounter.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I would seriously consider paper patching for whatever caliber you are thinking of caliber .30 or larger.
A 40-1 cast will expand at any velocity over 700 fps and can be jacked up to 1850 fps from our rifles. Slightly harder range scrap can go faster. 50-50 from our bolt rifles get to 2400 fps with no issues
For over 200 yards we look at the .375's but the .35s would do just as well with heavy for caliber PP 50-50 FN cast. If all I had was a Krag caliber .30 (we do) I would not hesitate with a 180-220 FN PP slug cast of range srcap. I would for sure shoot it alot and write the hold overs on a paper taped to the stock. Sight a scope to 200 and have at it.
But do practice alot.

[curioushooter]

As far as things offered for consideration. I've done paper patching in the past. A lot of paper patching. And I never could get it to a speed I consider worthwhile. If I value my time at let's say $30/hr then paper patching, if I consider a cast paper patched bullet equal in quality to a swaged jacketed one (which I think is being very generous) I could make maybe $3-4 hour, about 1/10th of what I expect my time to be worth. I can cast several hundred bullets in an hour, especially with 4, 6 or 8 hole molds.

shooting game at long range is not hunting! It's shooting! What is the challenge in that? Stalking is part of hunting.

There are some who would surely beg to differ on this point. Nobody stalks a prairie dog and good luck trying to stalk a coyote. But I understand your point. In fact, I went back the following Friday and stalked. I didn't find them in the same place and my impatience ended up causing me to spook them before I could get a shot. I got within 75 yards of the pair, but didn't get the dot over them soon enough and their tails were up and gone, again off property and they got away for the year. Hopefully they will both become pregnant and there will be 2 or 4 new fawns in the area next year.

At a certain point though I am just out there to put red meat in the freezer. If I score a big deer in a year early I am more adventurous, but this year the first one I got was small, so I wanted more.

While I am aware that 30-30 and 375 winchester and like could do the job at 250 yards I don't have a vehicle to deliver it that I have confidence in. In my experience no traditional lever action has the consistency to trust at ranges much past 100 yards. Yea, you go to the range on a sunny 65 degree day and you are all excited that you are plopping neat little groups into the bull. I've done it. Then you go out in cold rain to actually hunt that the POI has shifted for some mysterious reason and your group looks like a shotgun pattern. There is a reason why every long range/precision rifle has a free floated barrel and a bolt type or falling block type action.

[Winger Ed.]

There seems to be two approaches. With cast boolits it seems the logical way is a big bore heavy bullet and really work out trajectories and ranging. The other approach is to go the way of the small bore high velocity rifle with j-words.

I know its possible to kill deer with cast boolits out and over the curvature of the earth.
I just wouldn't do it.

For me, back when I was hunting,
If I was going to have a shot inside about 100-125-ish yards- I'd use a fast, gas checked, cast .30cal or a open/ladder sighted .45-70.
If I was somewhere where I knew a shot was going to be at 100-150-200 or so yards, usually along cleared out fence lines,
I took a Rem700 with full house jacketed in .270Win, .30-06, or 7mmMag zeroed at 200 yards.

For you're situation, I'd have a long range rifle, and the short range .357 if I was in a brushy place.
Then take which ever one was right for where I was going to be.

For me, its wasn't about what I could use, as much as it was what I should use, for where I was going to be.