I dont take any extra pains, don't lube cases, find 44 40 very easy to reload, and get great case life.Originally Posted by Prairie Cowboy
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I dont take any extra pains, don't lube cases, find 44 40 very easy to reload, and get great case life.
I suppose that it is a matter of opinion.
Or, perhaps all of these experienced SASS shooters who load .44-40 are wrong.
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php...em-with-44-40/
44 special, or 45 Colt has to be easier to reload and easier to find in the stores. Unless you just want a 44-40 for personal reasons—which is a good enough reason—,it will not do much that the 44, or 45 can’t do.
I can't access that page for some reason but I often see things about the 44 40 posted by people who could know better but don't and put their opinion out there anyway. I see on another thread you told someone they need a 44 magnum expander so they don't crush cases when loading for modern rifle with 429 bore. I load .427 for my old marlin and .431 xtp jacketed for my 70's winchester 94 with 44 40 dies, I never crush cases. I reset the expander for more flare for the bigger bullet. I dont think its an extra pain to set the die for the bullet you are going to useI suppose that it is a matter of opinion.
Or, perhaps all of these experienced SASS shooters who load .44-40 are wrong.
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php...em-with-44-40/
Absolutely. Around here .44-40 ammunition prices (if you can find any)
have skyrocketed to ridiculous levels. It is almost as difficult to source now as .38-40.
.45 Colt is still as easy to source as .357 magnum, and half the price of .44-40.
.357 magnum is the cheapest center-fire lever action carbine & revolver ammo of all.
.44 Special is less common than .45 Colt and a bit more expensive.
But all have the standard brass thicknesses that make them easy to load.
Prairie Cowboy I don't think SASS is a good reference for most really don't know what they are doing. The books and manuals say this or that and they believe everything in print and repeat it.
44-40 WCF is original and designed to the 1873 action there were many reasons 45 Colt was not included in any original Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle until fairly recently. I’ll take the “ hard to load” 44-40 WCF over any other chambering in the 1873 action. Same case capacity as the 45 Colt that works in the 73, 45 Colt in a lever gun gives you “Colt Bulge” in your brass, they all do it or they wouldn’t work,big over sized chambers are what let’s 45 Colt feed (relative term) from a tube magazine and a lever action.
While you are entitled to your opinion, I think that you are absolutely wrong about SASS shooters. These guys are probably the greatest advocates of reloading and shooting the .44-40 out there. They speak from experience, not from what they read in books or manuals.
And, why would you discredit what has been published in manuals? Do you also believe that reloading manuals are wrong and that the data in them should be ignored?
Frankly, your claim that they don't know what they are doing seems completely unfounded.
Again I would urge the OP to read this discussion among these SASS shooters regarding the .44-40 and to decide for himself.
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php...em-with-44-40/
Last edited by Prairie Cowboy; 11-26-2020 at 09:13 PM.
The reason why the .45 Colt cartridge was not included in lever actions is:
1) Demand.
Until the advent of Old West Reenacting in the late 1970s followed by CAS shooting in the 1980s, most were content to shoot the .44-40 or .38 Special that was available in their replicas, and few worried about reloading the .44-40. Also, the original .44-40 rifles were well-established with almost nobody wanting a .45 Colt rifle.
But, with the arrival of CAS, everything changed. Shooters wanted to shoot a lot and to reload for the sport. .45 Colt is more forgiving to load in quantity and so, created a demand.
2) The Casing.
Earlier iterations of the .45 Colt ranged from almost no rim at all on inside-primed formed copper cases in the 1870s to more modern solid head 20th century brass cases with a larger, but still marginal diameter rim.
However, with the introduction of the "fouling" groove on most rimmed cartridges, that changed. As an unintentional consequence the .45 Colt cartridge became a de facto semi-rimless cartridge if used with the sharp beak extractors common to lever action rifles. That created ample rim purchase to make the .45 Colt a practical proposition in lever actions.
And, of course, it feeds and extracts equally as well as .44-40 in both toggle-link rifles and the Marlins and Winchesters.
My Uberti 1866 rifle in .45 Colt exhibited no "case bulge" from firing. Why would it? Cartridges in toggle link actions slide straight in to the chamber so there is so need to enlarge the chamber because of supposed problems with angular feeding some attribute to Marlins and 1892 Winchesters.
The cases shot in my my 2018 made Marlin 1894 Cowboy also exhibit
no visible case bulging. The factory Winchester 250 grain lead cowboy cartridge I used measures .475" at the neck and .476" at the base. The fired case measured .477" at the neck and .476" at the base.
Seems pretty normal to me, and no feeding issues at all.
While some older .45 Colt replicas might have slightly large chambers, I think that this is somewhat exaggerated by those who are very protective of their beloved .44-40.
I do shoot SASS and they are a great bunch of folks. SASS is a game of fun or (if you want to win) it's a game of speed. I can't thinks of any shooting competition that demands less in accuracy than SASS. I also compete in NRA High Power, Palma, F-Class, and various long range competition. I do barrel work for some benchrest types but that is not my cup of tea.
Other than safety and smooth function SASS demands almost nothing from the reloaders. IMHO SASS is not a go place to look for a depth of knowledge for more than basic reloading techniques IMHO. Of course there are always exception.
Some cartridges have more challenges than other but most of the issues are non non existent or easily solved if you know what you are doing. Personally I find the 44-40 a very easy cartridge to load for.
On the other hand SASS shooter are the most fun to be around group of shooters I know of.
As to loading manuals the data is normally pretty good but the problem is the manuals that have outside writers provide the cartridge intro/description. Some of them are very good and some not so much.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-26-2020 at 10:36 PM.
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In my limited experience as a cas shooter every toggle link rifle made by uberti is a law unto itself. Generally speaking they have too strong springs and too soft screws which are screwed in way too tight. My Cimarron 1873, 30 inch bbl .45 had to have the bbl replaced [took a year], my 1876 NWMP carbine had a bad toggle link [one side was ok but the other was too long] and my beautiful 1866 Musket needed new springs and screws. Not talking about action jobs or short stroke kits just the basic stuff to make them operate smoothly. Also have an old Stoeger carbine that has slicked up real nice. After a basic toggle tune up they are pretty neat rifles. Good luck with whatever you buy but be warned, they do multiply.
Last edited by Baltimoreed; 11-26-2020 at 11:12 PM.
Not for their opinion or use. Neither they nor you nor anyone else can say what is or isn't easy for others. I would probably find brain surgery difficult...more likely impossible. Being a Master Electrician for 42 years came pretty easy.I suppose that it is a matter of opinion.
Or, perhaps all of these experienced SASS shooters who load .44-40 are wrong.
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php...em-with-44-40/
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Essentially what you are saying is that what seems easy for one person may be difficult for another. Quite true. It all depends on their level of knowledge and experience.
For an experienced .44-40 hand loader, it may be second nature to crank out hand loads, because he may not even really be aware of the care that he is taking. But for someone used to reloading .45 Colt, .44 magnum. .38 special, or .357 magnum, which are very forgiving, the .44-40 will quite likely be a whole new animal to tame.
Last edited by Prairie Cowboy; 11-27-2020 at 08:16 AM.
I have to agree with you about Uberti-made lever actions. The 1866 rifle that I owned would not chamber cartridges right out of the box. After carefully taking it apart, I determined that the bolt had been dropped at the factory, before assembly, damaging the lower lip on the breech face.
So much for quality control.
I corrected that problem with judicious use of emery cloth and a dowel, but still had problems due to the bolt being able to move up and down too much when fully forward, causing the breech face to misalign just a bit when the extractor contacted the rim of the chambered cartridge.
I weakened the extractor by bending it upward a bit and then it worked fine.
The internal parts are too soft IMHO. I found that the hammer sear engagement changed over a short time and the trigger pull became "mushy".
But they are beautiful, and great pains are taken with the fit and finish for the visual presentation.
I have to say that I also have no problem loading the 44WCF. I load for two rifles and a revolver on a Lee Classic Turret. I use Starline brass exclusively. I was having problems with too many case mouth cracks. I took three fired cases, installed hard steel machine screws through the primer pockets and filled them with 20-1 alloy. I used them to lap open the Lee sizing die. My thoughts were that the brass was being over worked. Sized down for .427 bullets then opened up and flared for .430 bullets. This stopped the case mouth cracks.
For me, the straight cases are “easier to load” mainly because carbide-ring sizing does are available for them, and the lubing/delubing process can be dispensed with. If steel dies are used, the process for straight and tapered/bottleneck types is pretty much the same.
The main problem I had with the .44-40 (and the .32-20) was that the seating/crimping step often induced a slight bulge in the case below the crimp that interfered with chambering. Using the Lee Factory Crimp die for these calibers eliminated this problem.
Oddly, I don’t have this problem with the .38-40 because I only have the sizing and expanding dies for the press. Seating and crimping is done with a Winchester 1882 Lever Tool, which does the job to perfection. I ought to try these tong tools in the other calibers some time.
Ain't that the truth. I replaced most of the screws in my 1866 and 1873 Sporting Rifles. Some of them had to be drilled out on my mini-mill and then removed using screw extractors.
Theys makin mountains outta molehills - 44/40 is easy to reload - break a case about every three hundred - cases not that much dearer than 44mag - its a non issue ....
I think it depends on where you live. I can walk into a local gun shop and buy .38-40 without issues. One gun shop has had a case of it on the shelf so long all the boxes are dusty and I picked up two other boxes at another shop recently nearby. I can't find .45 Colt anywhere. I can also get .44-40 at either of those same two gun shops if I choose. There are no Cowboy Action shooters or anything around here, so when it hits the shelves, it stays there. I can also get .25-20 and .32-20 as well.
Whatever cannot be remedied, must be endured.
they are made by uberti..thats funny right there.
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