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Thread: Anyone here speak .45 Colt CARBINE velocities?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Anyone here speak .45 Colt CARBINE velocities?

    I have a Rossi M1892 in .45 Colt, which still needs a christening at the range. I'm curious if someone here might have chronographed heavy(ish) loads in theirs and can recall velocities.
    Unless accuracy is dreadful (and in no .45 Colt has it been, yet), I'm contemplating a "general purpose" load of 18.0-20.0/Alliant 2400/250 gr. RNFP for the carbine. I'd like to reproduce, at minimum, the ballistics of the .44 Henry Rimfire (200 gr. RNFP @ 1120 f/s), but with a 250 gr. projectile.
    I have a feeling that 18.5/2400/250 gr. RNFP will yield this, plus some, but one never knows until the chronograph spells it out. I also know of the variablility of different firearms, even in the same model with consecutive serial numbers, but ANY indication would be of value.
    If going SLIGHTLY above this charge weight yields MUCH better accuracy, I'll entertain the notion, but I'm not interested in pushing things harder, just for the sake of ballistics. I'm not trying to create a "short-chamber .45-70, and I know where to find a lever-action Marlin M1895, if I feel the need to mistreat my shoulder.

    Anyway, I'd be interested in knowing what velocities/accuracy other .45 Colt carbine owners have obtained, and with what loads. I'm an experienced, conservative, and "ka-boom"-less reloader (these guns are too expensive to have to replace!), so share any data with the assurance that I will treat it with due respect and caution, holding blameless any who try to assist.

    TIA
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    200 grain RNFP over 8.5 grains of Unique will ring the steel at 80 yards so quick that I almost can't hear it over the gun blast. That is fast enough for me.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I have a Rossi '92 carbine in .45 Colt. I do not load it differently than my Gen1 Colt SA, 1920 New Service or modern Pietta and Cimarron copies, because having hotter "rifle only" loads defeats the purpose for having a revolver-caliber-carbine. Here is some comparative velocity and trajectory data:

    .45 Colt 20” Carbine, 255gr LFN, 6.5 grains Bullseye, Optimum Trajectory for Max 5” Bullet Rise
    Yds Drop(ins) FPS___Ft.-Lbs.

    0____-0.9678__1080___660
    10____0.8109__1061___637
    20____2.2806__1043___616
    30____3.4308__1027___597
    40____4.2511__1011___579
    50____4.7314__997____563
    60____4.8617__983____547___Max. bullet rise <5 inches
    70____4.6321__970____533
    80____4.0330__958____520
    90____3.0548__946____507
    100___1.6881__935____495
    110__-0.0767__924____483___Zero 110 yards/100 metres
    120__-2.2487__914____473
    130__-4.8373__903____462___Point Blank Range 130 yards
    140__-7.8518__894____452
    150__-11.3015_884____442
    160__-15.1957_875____433___Carbine energy at 160-170 yards approximates revolver energy near muzzle
    170__-19.5436_866____425
    180__-24.3546_858____417
    190__-29.6380_849____408
    200__-35.4032_841____400___Hold over the head of "E" silhouette for torso hits at 200 yards
    210__-41.6596_833____393
    220__-48.4167__825___385
    230__-55.6841_818____379
    240__-63.4713_810____371
    250__-71.7881_803____365___Hold one "man height" over target at 250 yards.

    .45 Colt Velocity __Colt New Service 5-1/2”____Rossi 20”

    Western 255-grain Lubaloy_866, 20 Sd_________1063, 17 Sd

    Saeco 260-grain #955 FN
    6.0 Grains Bullseye_______862, 29 Sd_________982, 28 Sd
    6.5 Grains Bullseye_______900, 18 Sd________1093, 7 Sd___Approximates factory load velocity
    7.2 grains Bullseye_______953, 15 Sd________1145, 10 Sd__Do Not Exceed with 250+ grain bullet

    Saeco 230-grain #954 FN
    6.0 grains Bulllseye_______851, 7 Sd_________1027,18 Sd
    6.5 grains Bullseye_______908, 14 Sd________1123, 17 Sd
    7.2 grains Bullseye_______967, 19 Sd________1172, 11 Sd

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Pressure test data from Larry Gibson firing 7.5 grains of Bullseye with 252 grain bullet from ten-inch T/C Contender, slightly exceeds SAAMI MAP for .45 Colt, but safely within design limits of modern cowboy clones. In pre-WW2 Colts and modern Winchester 1873 repros I don't exceed 6.5 grains of Bullseye, which approximates factory load velocity with a 255-grain lead conical.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 11-21-2020 at 05:13 PM.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Accurate 45-250P, sized .454", loaded over 8.8 gr Unique does 1150 fps in my Marlin and is very accurate.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Steve in N CA

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    I guess I should have mentioned that MY .45 Colt revolver is a Ruger Redhawk. My mistake. Loading the carbine w/18.5/2400/250 RNFP would NOT negate the purpose (for ME) of having a Revolver-caliber carbine, though this load will never be mistaken for "factory" in the Redhawk. If a lighter charge gets me close to 1150(ish) f/s from the carbine, then so much the better, when shooting them through the revolver.
    It appears that the velocity increase of the carbine over the revolver averages ~150 f/s, depending on the load's pressure. It may be a bit less for me, since my Redhawk has a 7.5" barrel, and may wring a few more f/s out of any load than a 5.5" barrel (again, assuming this is the only difference between our respective revolvers).

    Given the "ringing" endorsement (sorry, couldn't resist a chance to be "PUNNY") for the 8.0/Unique/200 gr. RNFP load, I might try the same load with the 250 gr. RNFP through both firearms, and call it a day.

    Thanks, all, for the guidance. But chime in more, if other ideas occur.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  6. #6
    Boolit Man Prairie Cowboy's Avatar
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    A charge of 18.0 to 20.0 grains of Alliant 2400 with a 250 grain lead RNFP would produce around 1400+ FPS, I would guess.
    Certainly this is much more potent than the .44 Henry ballistics that you mention, and with chamber pressures much too high for any 1866 or 1873 Winchester replica.

    The .45 Colt rifle data from my Lyman manual lists pretty conservative loads as maximum, since they caution against magnum or +P loads with .45 Colt brass, but that's just them. It could be they worry about such loads being used in the Italian replica toggle link Winchesters.

    Some loads listed for the Lyman #452664, a typical 250 grain RNFP with a crimp grove, are:

    (16" barrel)

    Titegroup - 6.2 grains @ 1020 FPS
    Red Dot - 6.5 grains @ 1005 FPS
    Unique - 8.2 grains @ 1101 FPS
    HS-6 - 10.5 grains @ 1066 FPS

    8.0 grains of Unique has been the standard .45 Colt/250 grain lead revolver load for any nitro-proofed revolver forever.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
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    Across the board I gained 200 fps from the 45 Colts 7.5" RBH to the 16" M92' . All book data . I used the 452-252 , 452-255 Lee , Lyman round groove and NOE version of the 454424 at 1050 fps from the revolver golf balls out to 70 yd while not a certainty every shot were not difficult to hit . Between 78-82 yd the bullet would violently destabilize and depart line of flight at a repeatable 9:45 x 40 or more probably a curve that in 30 yd would miss a 10' berm . By coincidence that's also where the 1240 fps MV bullets break 1130 fps at 4400' 80 24% humidity . (Transonic , shhhh the doubtful will run me out on a rail after flogging me with wet noodles)
    In the end I had to back the loads down to 1050 MV , 8.5 gr of my 1968 Unique , to get 100 yd hits . I did load from Quick Load data produced by Mr Ranch Dog himself with a 350 gr Mountain Molds 453-350 RF that basically added .1 inch to the Lee 458-340 . There's just enough twist to stabilize them in the 1-32" M92' and at 850 fps from the Ruger they weren't unpleasant to shoot . Held to 20kpsi the first load with H322 was 1240 fps which almost immediately resulted in the purchase of a 45-70 . Toned down to 9 gr of Unique gave the 800+- fps in the pistol but was not fired in the carbine . 10 gr is reported to be below my set limit of 20kpsi . The 92' used was serialized indicating that it was a 44 mag suitable action . The Rossi's for a time were chambered in 454 but I didn't feel comfortable going full Ruger data holding instead to light ACP levels . Besides much more than that pulls the base pin out of the BH .
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  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    In speaking about velocities and pressures, if a fella had a 73 in 45 Colt, i wonder if the Reloader 7 trick would work here, also

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballard View Post
    In speaking about velocities and pressures, if a fella had a 73 in 45 Colt, i wonder if the Reloader 7 trick would work here, also
    For rifle only. NFG in revolvers.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    I'd be VERY okay, if 17.5/2400/250 would approximate the Henry load. As I said, the closer I get to approximating that in a carbine, the more controllable the round would be in my revolver. There's a load on Alliant's website consisting of 15.4/2400/255gr. LSWC that clocks 972 f/s from a 5.5" test barrel (I'm guessing). I'm betting that it's a smoky load, but probably a manageable one. I suspect that my "best load" for both weapons lies somewhere between 15.4 and 18.5 grains of 2400. Although my carbine is an M1892 Rossi, I would be happy to develop a satisfactory load that's also safe in toggle-link carbines such as the 1873 replicas.
    The input that I've received gives me several strong avenues of approach. Thanks to all.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Well, back in 2000 I chronographed 18.5gr 2400 behind the RCBS 255gr SWC (actually about 270gr) through my Rossi 92 and my 7 1/2 inch barreled Ruger Blackhawk. Average for 10 shots from the Rossi was 1340.7 fps and the Ruger was 1112.8 fps. So, about a 200 fps differences. Bullets were sized .454 for both. The only difference was the Ruger loads were loaded in Federal cases and the Rossi in Remington.

    Bill

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check