Linotype and lyman #2

[Evoken]

Looking through the lyman cast boolit book (#5) it calls for many of the boolits to be cast out of these 2 alloys. Now I am aware that this is just there suggestion, but are these alloys really that good?
What I mean is what applications would they have? Isn't lino too hard? Everything I have read on this site says you want something close to 2% tin and antimony for hunting rounds so that you get expansion and they are not brittle.
I have been mixing up some alloys for my 44 mags with the 2% range with slightly higher tin content. This far I have not experienced any leading even with boolits sized to .429.
I would assume you would want the harder lyman #2 for some of the rifle rounds that get cranked up, but isn't that the purpose of a gas check in high speed rifle rounds?
Just trying to figure out why lyman would advocate using such hard alloys. Not to mention the fact that tin and antimony are the more expensive components to these alloys.

Just curious I suppose.
Thanks,
Ken

[richhodg66]

The older Lyman manuals also recommended sizing to groove diameter too. Seems we've learned a lot since then as casters.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have settled on 15 bhn as my upper limit for cast boolits. Unless you are trying to push rifle rounds well above 2000 fps there is no need to go higher. And lino type is getting scarce just like wheel weights. Most of the cast boolits I shoot are between 10 and 12.5 bhn.
But I do not load my .357 or .44 mag. to full magnum levels either. Easier on the guns and the wallet.

[Mitch]

bullet to gun fit is king.Lyman molds are cut to spec using the Lyman #2 alloy.So Lyman is telling you to get the right size bullet use the #2 alloy.
Tin has got stupid hi in price,Antimoney is getting there so the less you need to use the better.I cast mostly for hand guns from 9 bhn to 12.Wad cutters bneing the soft stuff.12 bhn for 357 mag and 45 cals in the middle of that about 10bhn.

[Ledhead]

That is just the loading information they used when developing that particular load. Just like any load data it is a guide giving data and information based on the variables they presented, change any of the variables and the data changes.

In my 7 1/2" SBH .44 mag I've personally ran a plain base boolit upto a verified 1600 fps with an alloy of jacketed range lead and just a bit of tin for proper fill. These boolits were super soft and shot pretty poorly but only slightly leaded the barrel. When PCed and slowed down just a bit to 1400fps they shot fine with no leading.

So far my "hunting alloy is 50/50 WW/pure +5% tin. This gives me great expansion and weight retention out of a solid nose at 1500-1800 fps impact velocities when water dropped and great performance when shot out of my SBH at 1350fps using an air cooled HP or CP boolit.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Tin is an important ingredient. I mixed some 50/50 yesterday for my .44 special and was having wrinkles. Forgot to add the tin which in my case is pewter. Came out to 9.8 bhn. These will be powder coated and put over a good charge of Bullseye since I could not find HP 38 locally.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I think Lino was quite prevalent back in those days, so it was used on a regular basis by many casters.

Lyman #2 is a very good alloy, and works well in almost any application.
But Lyman #2 cut 50-50 with pure lead, is also quite good, but may not be the best for very high pressure situations.
Also, Lyman #2 cut 75-25 with Pure Lead (one part Lyman #2, 3 parts Pure) is just fine for low pressure pistol ammo.

With all that said, I personally think Lino it too hard/Brittle for shooting cast boolits ...there are those that claim Lino will wear out a barrel, I'm not smart to explain why that is the case, but I suspect it's true.

[Evoken]

I think Lino was quite prevalent back in those days, so it was used on a regular basis by many casters.

Lyman #2 is a very good alloy, and works well in almost any application.
But Lyman #2 cut 50-50 with pure lead, is also quite good, but may not be the best for very high pressure situations.
Also, Lyman #2 cut 75-25 with Pure Lead (one part Lyman #2, 3 parts Pure) is just fine for low pressure pistol ammo.

With all that said, I personally think Lino it too hard/Brittle for shooting cast boolits ...there are those that claim Lino will wear out a barrel, I'm not smart to explain why that is the case, but I suspect it's true.

I don't really understand why it would be too hard to wear out a barrel. Based on the alloy calculator I downloaded from here lino has a hardness of 19. Doesn't copper have a hardness of 130ish?
I just assumed it would be far too brittle for many applications. I guess if that is what you have and you are just paper punching it would be fine. However, from.what I have read here and other sources anything over 6% antimony makes boolits prone to shattering. Perhaps that is what would where out a barrel, boolits beginning to fragment before they left the bore?
I can certainly see why lyman #2 is good for many molds. I have not made any up nor used any, but I have made and used some 20:1 and the extra tin really helps fill out a big stubborn mold.

[quail4jake]

If your lino is like my lino it may be a well used alloy from many years ago, mine came as 25 lb cast pigs. As lino was re used it became tin poor since the pot of molten alloy was cleaned by scraping off the dross which is really some of the tin in an oxidized form. We casters usually reduce the alloy with a lipid and flux with carbon or borax etc. to keep that tin in solution. sooo, what I'm saying is don't count on 4% tin in your lino...I've learned to add 1% tin to the weight of lino that I'm using in the admixture to compensate. When I started doing that everything fell into line, density and BHN hit right on my target and the alloy became very user friendly with great mold fill out. Now I live in a happy place surrounded by good karma and inner peace! And that was before I consulted the Dali Lama...

[Stewbaby]

To the above point, here is some Lino I had tested recently.

[ulav8r]

The reason people believe high antimony alloy will wear a barrel quickly is because of the nature of antimony. It is harder than lead and tin, 3 on the Mohs scale versus 1.5 for lead and tin. Also, antimony forms needles that extend out of the alloy. This is why antimony is a major constituent of babbit metals, the antimony supports a shaft away from the other components of the babbit and allow oil to stay in the space around the shaft.

Antimony in a boolit reduces the amount of contact of lead with the bore if the projectile is not oversized.

[243winxb]

Hard alloys keep bullets from skidding & slumping. Accuracy is better.

Sizing to groove in 357 & 44 mag, works well with hard cast.

I learned from an early Lyman manual.

I just compared both, groove sized & throat sized. Groove diameter is more accurate.

Ask an old Bullseye Pistol shooter like me, what works. We need 3" groups or better @ 50 yards.

[243winxb]

Test soft vs hard Grove diameter vs throat.

[Stephen Cohen]

many of the old reloading manuals suggest Lino and Lyman #2 and I have come to believe they are not needed in most cases. I found Lino to be as bad with leading as any other alloy in my hot 357 loads. I have learned more from this forum than I have from any manual. I have used range scrap from our pistol range with a little tin added, for both rifle and magnum pistol loads, my brother uses my cast in his SW 460 a over 1,900fps with no leading and I drive the Lee 158gr PB at 2,400 fps in my 357 Max with great accuracy and no leading at all, my secret is I coat with Hi-Tek Coating, I doubt I could be certain of this kind of performance from conventional lube. It works for me and those I cast for. Regards Stephen

[Evoken]

Test soft vs hard Grove diameter vs throat.

Thank you for posting some groups that show your real world application. This poses more questions in my head though. What do you consider hard cast vs soft cast? Obviously your hard cast with lino mixed in give you better grouping, but would you mind going into detail some?
What is your composition or assumed (or measured if you have the equip.) Brinell hardness rate? Are you running more antimony than tin, which would increase your hardness. Or is your soft lead already tin rich and you are just balancing the antimony a bit.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I don't really understand why it would be too hard to wear out a barrel. Based on the alloy calculator I downloaded from here lino has a hardness of 19. Doesn't copper have a hardness of 130ish?
I just assumed it would be far too brittle for many applications. I guess if that is what you have and you are just paper punching it would be fine. However, from.what I have read here and other sources anything over 6% antimony makes boolits prone to shattering. Perhaps that is what would where out a barrel, boolits beginning to fragment before they left the bore?
I can certainly see why lyman #2 is good for many molds. I have not made any up nor used any, but I have made and used some 20:1 and the extra tin really helps fill out a big stubborn mold.

You are close, not fragmenting in the traditional sense, but Shedding (flaking off) Antimony Dendrites

I did say I wasn't smart enough to explain it.
luckily, I am smart enough to know how to search for someone who has explained it.

See post #540
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3099260

[Evoken]

^^while that post is a lot to digest I think it makes sense to me. Basically what the gentleman is saying is the alloy flakes act almost like a rubbing compound, which is what begins to wear the rifling down. I would imagine that may take some time, but perhaps not if you are hot rodding.

[fredj338]

I think both alloys are too hard for the vast majority of handgun applications. I shoot a lot of range scrap in service calibers & it works just fine with midrange magnums.

[243winxb]

Thank you for posting some groups that show your real world application. This poses more questions in my head though. What do you consider hard cast vs soft cast? Obviously your hard cast with lino mixed in give you better grouping, but would you mind going into detail some?
What is your composition or assumed (or measured if you have the equip.) Brinell hardness rate? Are you running more antimony than tin, which would increase your hardness. Or is your soft lead already tin rich and you are just balancing the antimony a bit.

Plain wheel weight & Pure 50/50 vs plain wheel weights plus 2" of Rotometal linotype. Lee 10 pound pot. No BHN test equipment. My thumbnail knows the difference. Maybe the difference was the bullet lube?

I tested 45 acp with pure vs wheel weight + 2 inch Linotype. Pure had deformed noses, feeding problems, with poor accuracy. Pure was useless in my lyman mold, had to use a Saeco to get .452" diameter.

Photo of Oven Heat treated, water colded 44 mag test.

AS ALWAYS, DO YOUR OWN TESTING.

[243winxb]

Tested pure linotype in the 45 acp with 3.8 gr Bullseye powder. Lyman 200 gr bevel base , WLP in Starline. Bullet diameter .452"

Its been said, super hard alloys will lead when shooting target loads. The reason given is that there is no obturation of the bullet.

If bullets are .452" and groove is .4515" where is bullet going to expand too?

Can a copper jacketed bullet be to hard?