Linotype and lyman #2

[Evoken]

^^ 243winxb,
Thank you for the further clarification. That is some good shooting at 50 yds, heck I am half your age and I dont get groups like that consistently.
Thanks,
Ken

[243winxb]

Pure lead & obturation. A pure lead Lee Key Drive Slug will expand in diameter & slump on firing in my 12 ga slug gun. The slug is tapered to be smaller at the base.
It can be messured.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

^^while that post is a lot to digest I think it makes sense to me. Basically what the gentleman is saying is the alloy flakes act almost like a rubbing compound, which is what begins to wear the rifling down. I would imagine that may take some time, but perhaps not if you are hot rodding.

well, the main reason to use a hard alloy, like straight Lino, is for Hot rodding
Hence the title of the long thread I linked to.

Myself, I'd rather Heat Treat 94-3-3 to a BHN of 24 for Hot rodding, than use Lino.

[Evoken]

well, the main reason to use a hard alloy, like straight Lino, is for Hot rodding
Hence the title of the long thread I linked to.

Myself, I'd rather Heat Treat 94-3-3 to a BHN of 24 for Hot rodding, than use Lino.

That is what I am talking about. If you can use things like heat treating and water cooling to greatly increase hardness why waste the precious metals? I would imagine you could get some serious hardness out of lyman 2 with heat treatment/water cooling, but I dont quite understand all of that yet. I am learning from this forum though, that is certain.
I don't have any hardness testers or anything like that, but I cast some boolits some water dropped some not. After they cure for awhile I will conduct some hoopy hardness testing. I have some spring punches that will not tell me exact hardness, but should tell me that one is harder than the other and I should be able to determine the to an extent how much harder. Of course the proof will be both the accuracy and punch of said boolits.

[Dusty Bannister]

Generally, the higher percentage of antimony, the faster the alloy will precipitation harden.
Generally, the higher the quench temperature of the casting, the harder it will become when mature. Two examples. When you oven heat treat at about 450-460 degrees, and quench immediately in cool water, you will reach max hardness. When you oven heat treat at about 410 degrees or so, it will not reach the same hardness. This is covered on the LASC site. Simplified, you do not really need max hardness so a weaker blend of alloy and a lower quench temp will give a moderately hard casting that will take care of the majority of a shooting need. Please review the information on the LASC site in case I made a mistake on the temps for quench hardening.

[Evoken]

I will have to look at the lasc site for this information.
This poses another question. What to you gentlemen do when you say water quench? It is my understanding that you drop directly from the mold to a bucket of cold water. What is the purpose of oven heating a batch to a certain temperature then water or air cooling? Does the second heat sink further help in the tempering/hardening? Or is the oven heat just so that they are all a uniform temperature when you quench them?

[Dusty Bannister]

Quenching from the mold might have a lot of temperature variation due to time between pouring and dropping from the mold. You have no real control over the temperature. Oven heat treating gives you a batch of nearly identically heated and quenched bullets. Makes life simpler. It is all in that article at LASC. Wha? second heat sink ?

[Evoken]

That makes sense, that way everything is uniform. Heat sink may have been a poor choice of words. What I meant was I assume when you are oven treating you air cool your boolits in your catch as you are casting them. Then, once you are done casting you oven treat them to water cool.

[243winxb]

I used the Lyman heat treat info from their online FAQ. First problem, bullets need sizing first. I lube sized with a Lyman 450. Then I had to remove lube before placing in oven. Ok for small test. Not for production.

Lyman-

Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

[243winxb]

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html see bottom of page

[Springfield]

Comparing pure with linotype/WW is not any kind of a fair comparison. I run pure/ww 50/50 in my nines and my 45 acp's and it works great, no leading, good accuracy. Pure is way too soft. I save that for my muzzle loaders. My blackpowder cartridge guns get a 66/33 pure/WW mix. And I almost never add tin, as there is some already in there, I just run hot enough for proper fill-out.

[Evoken]

I have read both items you gentlemen have posted and both are very informative.
It seems that if I decide I need to heat treat, then my Lee APP will get more of a workout than just the boolits I tumble lube.
Great stuff guys, thank you very much!
Ken

[catkiller45]

I have been using what is in the Lyman loading book with no 2 in my 223 and have been getting pretty decent results. Only at 50 yards though. Have not chronograph any as of yet.. try their data. It works..

[twinscrewcanoe]

Is there a link to the LASC website. I did a search but did not find it. Thanks.

[Evoken]

It is a sticky above. A definitive answer to lead and alloys. You will find a link in there.

[WILCO]

I think Lino was quite prevalent back in those days, so it was used on a regular basis by many casters.

Yup. That's a true statement.
Printing shops were everywhere.
Now it's a different world..........

[Willie T]

Looking through the lyman cast boolit book (#5) it calls for many of the boolits to be cast out of these 2 alloys. Now I am aware that this is just there suggestion, but are these alloys really that good?
What I mean is what applications would they have? Isn't lino too hard? Everything I have read on this site says you want something close to 2% tin and antimony for hunting rounds so that you get expansion and they are not brittle.
I have been mixing up some alloys for my 44 mags with the 2% range with slightly higher tin content. This far I have not experienced any leading even with boolits sized to .429.
I would assume you would want the harder lyman #2 for some of the rifle rounds that get cranked up, but isn't that the purpose of a gas check in high speed rifle rounds?
Just trying to figure out why lyman would advocate using such hard alloys. Not to mention the fact that tin and antimony are the more expensive components to these alloys.

Just curious I suppose.
Thanks,
Ken

Lyman No2 is by far the best alloy I’ve used for high pressure loads. It is hard to enough that I have never had problems with swaging a cast bullet during seating. It is soft enough to get good expansion if you push it fast. It is tough enough to give exceptional weight retention along with expansion on game. It is my go to alloy for top accuracy if I’m loading 1,000 fps or faster. It is very easy to cast very good bullets with. It gives perfect fill out at lower temperature which all but eliminates tinning on your molds.
The only real complaints I see is the growing cost of tin if you don’t already have a tin stash stock piled.
Willie

[Bird]

I have no real use for lino or lyman#2 although I have some on hand. All bullets that I cast are with clip on ww, and are water dropped. I tried adding 50% near pure lead and a little tin to bring it up 0.5 to 1% then water dropped, and accuracy was as good as any other alloy mix, at least at pistol ranges out to 30 to 45 feet. I never seem to have a problem with any alloy hardness.
For rifle accuracy to the Nth degree at 100 and + yards the alloy becomes more important. Bullet fit and powder load is by far the most important for accuracy.

[fredj338]

Tested pure linotype in the 45 acp with 3.8 gr Bullseye powder. Lyman 200 gr bevel base , WLP in Starline. Bullet diameter .452"

Its been said, super hard alloys will lead when shooting target loads. The reason given is that there is no obturation of the bullet.

If bullets are .452" and groove is .4515" where is bullet going to expand too?

Can a copper jacketed bullet be to hard?

Back in the day I had access to very cheap lino & cast my CAS bullets with it. Shot great but a waste of good lino, & I had quite a bit of leading at low pressure 45colt levels. Wish I would have bought a pallet back then though. I have 100# of pure that I need to alloy.

[lwknight]

Fred, I have not been here for years but still remembered your picture from way back when.