HP cast bullets ?

[Wayne S]

Has anyone ever done or seen video's of cast bullets being tested in any form of test media from Ballistic Gel to wet phone books, specifically 9MM's ? I could see maybe a GC bullet cast from pure lead.

[Ledhead]

Look up Elvis ammo on YouTube, he has some 357 mag stuff and I believe he has some 38 special stuff too.

All my personal testing has been with muzzleloaders and .44 mags in both rifle and handgun

[emt1581]

Look up Elvis ammo on YouTube, he has some 357 mag stuff and I believe he has some 38 special stuff too.

That's interesting. I've been watching him for a couple years. His vids are sparse as of late. But I'll have to see what he's got as I'm curious about this to.

[Wheelguns 1961]

Do a search on here. There have been a lot of guys that did testing and posted their results

[fredj338]

I've tested a couple designs in wetpack. All about the HP design & alloy, 1000-1150fps. For me, cast hp in 9mm would be shtf ammo.

[OS OK]

I tested HP's all summer in a water tube, did a series of various lead blends at the very top speeds I could manage in the .45ACP, tested various type cavities in HP's also, some stuff you won't see for sale...just for the sake of finding out about the nature of the HP itself.

The test tube is that green tube left...In this photo I am testing in milk jugs filled with water.



Did a development series on a tri-winged HP a couple years back, I called it a 'turbo prop HP' and did all my testing in a water tube to make a snubby round that'd open big & wide but stay in the perp. for in house defense. This is what it looked like when Elvis tested it in a gel block...exactly how it worked in water.



I've had countless comments on my posts here how water is too hard to test in but I disagree, they only give me their comment without any proof whatsoever on their parts, just their subjective opinions, no pictures of testing and no data.

That turbo prop round was developed in water and tested at the exact same speed over at Elvis's house in the gel...results were identical here and there. That's why I disagree about water testing.
Here's Elvis's test of my turbo prop snubbie .38S HP. ...

Hollow Point (CONTROLLED EXPANSION) Initiator Rounds ===)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhO_vsspkw

This is my channel if your interested in HP test in the water tube, next spring I will repeat many of these tests in a gel block, it is sitting the shop fresh and ready to go, I ran out of time this summer to include that..then we'll see tests of HP's in water and gel side by side and determine whether the water really is too hard or if it is a good media to test in, nothing trumps hard evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi5..._as=subscriber

If you want to see FPS numbers, cast weights, various HP cavities tested and measurements...that's where you'll find it.

[charlie b]

Your tests remind me of work my father-in-law and I did back in the 80's for the same reason. He had a 3.5" .45acp and most of the commercial HPs would not expand at the lower velocities. So we tried a bunch of different shapes. Finally got one to work. It was an almost exact match to Winchester Silvertips, which at the time were kinda expensive.

Gel and water work. But, you need to have some material in front of the medium. Denim, fleece, wool, etc to determine if the material plugs the hollow point and stops it from expanding.

Many now days use hot glue to fill the cavity to counter this problem. Others use airsoft BB's or shotgun shot.

[charlie b]

Has anyone ever done or seen video's of cast bullets being tested in any form of test media from Ballistic Gel to wet phone books, specifically 9MM's ? I could see maybe a GC bullet cast from pure lead.

Go to Youtube. Enter "cast hollowpoint expansion" in the search line. Many such tests showed up.

[OS OK]

Your tests remind me of work my father-in-law and I did back in the 80's for the same reason. He had a 3.5" .45acp and most of the commercial HPs would not expand at the lower velocities. So we tried a bunch of different shapes. Finally got one to work. It was an almost exact match to Winchester Silvertips, which at the time were kinda expensive.

Gel and water work. But, you need to have some material in front of the medium. Denim, fleece, wool, etc to determine if the material plugs the hollow point and stops it from expanding.

Many now days use hot glue to fill the cavity to counter this problem. Others use airsoft BB's or shotgun shot.

I use silicone caulking, put it in a hypodermic syringe and fill the cavities from the bottom up to the top...no bubbles or voids.



It remains flexible and will not let that HP plug up. I figure you can plug a HP if you shoot the right thing the right way but I imagine it'd be the odd occurrence.

[fredj338]

Maybe too hard is over simplification. What I find testing in water is maybe it is too uniform vs wetpack or gel. I have seen bullets frag in water but expand nicely in wetpack.

[OS OK]

I have discovered that there is a 'window of expansion' in HP's for pistol/revolver. I'm sure that's the same for rifle but I haven't worked with the rifle HP's in the last 3 or so years here in my shop.
That window is about 100fps/bhn this is a 'rule of thumb' to get started, in other words it's all about the speed, the lead blend and the type cavity your working with. On the low side of speed they act like solids and there's little to no expansion, on the low side of bhn the lead from the front of the HP just peels off because they are too soft. You could call this a frag but it's not a frag in the sense of too much hardness and lack of malleability. This lead just flowed off the front end...



This is that 'turbo prop' I worked on some years back (some of the many fails I had are in the first picture above), a low speed round that had to be soft and malleable, I wanted a very large cutting shape that had limited penetration for in house self defense it had to hold together but at the same time it too had a window of operation, I caught a lot of flack over this experiment but I learned so much in doing it and Elvis discovered that window too when he tested them in gel for me.



It take a lot of experimenting at first to get a good understanding of this balance of speed, blend and cavity shape and how it applies.
I've had many fails. The optimum in my estimation is to get the penetration you desire and keep all the weight of the HP in tack.

On the high side of that window, too much speed will frag the round in this above sense if it's too soft and on the high end of bhn it actually frags, tears the petals off or it doesn't mushroom and acts like a solid.

HP's are a very interesting undertaking if you like details and strive for excellence in your casting and loading. There's so much to learn.

[USSR]

The alloy is crucial to get good expansion. All the bullets below consisted of 97.0Pb/2.5Sn/0.5Sb. Notice how the petals of the penta point remained intact and did not break off. Velocities were 800fps to 940fps. The key is to keep the Sn content high and the Sb content low.

Don

[Ledhead]

Boolit on the left is a 245gr hollow point. It penetrated aprox 15". Boolit on the right is a 255gr CP. It penetrated aprox 22".

These are the results of my "hunting alloy" of 50/50 + 5% (COWW/pure + tin) I have no real idea of actual BHN but the measurements are pretty much spot on. Muzzle velocity is just over 1350 fps tested into wet phonebooks. Both boolits out preformed any JHP I've tried. The short list includes 240gr XTP, 265gr rem corlock, 270gr speer deep curl.

[Good Cheer]

This strange looking stuff


Does this.


You can see the lumps in the expanded metal.

[Good Cheer]

Some other tests from long ago (.38 Special).

[Good Cheer]

I'm just getting started on a new project, hollow point wadcutters for a 2" snubby .41 mag.
Lyman's old hollow base wadcutter mold could definitely be improved upon.

[OS OK]

Some other tests from long ago (.38 Special).

I like how you save the evidence...I do that too. Almost have this box filled now from testing all summer.

Next summers project will be testing the same HP's & respective loads in gel.
That's ready & waiting too.

We will finally see gel & water tests side by side and put an end to all this subjective speculation about water testing.

[KVO]

Before anybody gets too excited about decrying the Clear Ballistics gel let's get it out of the way- no it is not directly comparable to 10% gel and typically shows increased penetration. Done.

I've been shooting the Clear Ballistics product for about 2 years now, actually on my second set of blocks as the first two are opaque from crud now. OSOK one suggestion I have for you is to absolutely avoid getting any dirt or dust on it to the extent possible as it is pretty much impossible to wash off or remove. If you shoot the blocks and they flop in the dirt either you cut off the now adhered gunk or it melts into the mix.

As previously stated tin is your friend, it helps the alloy flow and hold together. Antimony will increase brittleness and anything over a trivial amount will lead to the noses blowing off. Alloy makes a huge difference with HP so keep it as consistent as you can. I have been using Roto Metals 20:1 as a baseline and comparing unknown range scrap from there.

As to the OP's question on pure lead I have not tried but will open up at pretty low velocity, though I suspect 30:1 or even 40:1 would be preferable. What is your intended impact velocity? It makes a big difference even going from a 2" barrel to a 6" barrel with the same load. Also as demonstrated by others above cavity geometry is critical in relation to alloy and impact velocity. 20:1 is my standard test mix. A few examples:







If you are filling the noses it depends what with. I tried filling the nose on the far left bullet with powder coat for each of the below sets. It doesn't act the same as silicone and it slightly arrests expansion.

NOE 358-135



MP 360-640



Other folks like Curious Shooter have shot quite a bit of actual calibrated 10% gel and I'm hoping will chime in.

[OS OK]

@ KVO... Nice work there and thanks for the warning about the filth that migrates into the gel...I made a jig to clamp it in on the side of my milk jug test box...

I may have to add a wire across the rear 1/3 of it too. I think I will get into the habbit of spreading a clean tarp under the test jig until I'm certain the gel will not jump the jig. That thin piece of wood on top of the block clamp is where I can hang jeans or leather in front of the block with a couple of small spring clamps.

If anything passes through the gell, I will have some old overalls and beach towels stuffed in the trap to catch it.

This is not tested yet, it may have to wait till next spring when I get back to testing all the cast that have already gone down the tube.

[bigboredad]

That is a really cool set up. Looking forward to your new testing

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