Casual discussion: What's the deal with .38 Super?

[RJM52]

The SUPER .38 was introduced by Colt in .38 ACP in 1929 as a law enforcement handgun to be able to better penetrate the bodies of the new fangled automobiles and the body armor being worn by gangsters at the time. By the early 1930s the velocity had been boosted to 1300 fps but the name on the box was still .38 ACP. It was also advertised heavily to sportsman as a "handgun round that could kill anything" because at the time it was one of the highest velocity handgun rounds made. Ammo was all 130 grain but there were both FMJ and HPs available. No clue why but the HPs were eventually discontinued.

Have heard that some double-stack Supers had problems feeding the standard semi-rimmed case which is why the SuperComp case came to be. I've never owned a DS so I have no experience with it...

mega...Colt did make a .38 Super 1911 style handgun for a while that you may have liked...it was called the Double Eagle... Don't see many for sale any more...

Bob

[rintinglen]

Dang it. the 38 ACP dates to 1899 and was invented by John Browning for his pistol that became the Colt 1900 and later 1902 and 1903. It was an attempt to provide the military with a semi-automatic pistol of equivalent caliber to the then standard 38 Long Colt used by the U.S. Armed forces. It was updated when the slow selling, outdated Military models were discontinued and given a significant raise in pressure and powder charge, but initially at least, it was called the Super 38 and used the same 130 grain bullet and same case as the older cartridge. It was advertised as an outdoorsman's gun, "which has been hailed with unstinted appreciation by the Hunter of Big Game, the Trapper, the Explorer and Target Shooter." IT WAS NOT DESIGNED AS A POLICE FIRE ARM. That canard came from the fertile mind of some gun magazine writer, no doubt familiar with Texas Ranger Frank Hamer's use of one, but I have a 1938 Colt Catalog and had a 1931 as well, and neither mentioned a darned thing about the police. It was not designed as a Police Firearm, but rather a flatter shooting, lighter recoiling 1911 to sell more guns of a "modern" design.

[megasupermagnum]

mega...Colt did make a .38 Super 1911 style handgun for a while that you may have liked...it was called the Double Eagle... Don't see many for sale any more...

Bob

I never knew that, I'll keep my eye out.

[sixshot]

Just got my 1911 Rock Island 38 Super today & got to shoot it just before dark with a couple of test loads out the window of my jeep because it was starting to snow.
I started out with a 128 gr HP sized .356" because I didn't know whether to size them .355" or .356". I was surprised, the gun shot better than I thought it would for fixed sights & being a lower priced gun.



Dick

[bruce drake]

RIA makes an excellent budget 1911.

[RJM52]

rintinglen....have to agree that it was advertised as a sportsmen's cartridge but a lot of police agencies adopted the guns... If you go to the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame there are a lot of Supers on display... They knew a good thing when the saw it...

[RJM52]

Dick..wait till you hit a Jack with one of those HPs...

[JMax]

My COVID project earlier this year was to take a Smith 8 shot 627 cylinder and ream it to take 38 Super and 9mm. I cast and PC lots of 9s it has become a constant companion on my range trips. I bring both super and 9s with me for shooting fun. Love the cartridge as it is more accurate than 9s in a 357 barrel but this weekend I will cast more bullets and size them larger than 356.

[John in WYO]

Picked up a used Colt 04540T .38 Super Lightweight Commander some months back.
.38 Super ammo or brass isn’t commonly found locally.
What modification would be necessary to run the rimless .38 Super Comp brass from Starline?
Tweaking the extractor is all I can think of.
Guess I have to buy another set of dies, ....��

[1006]

The extractor is the only thing you need to tune. It may run fine on 38 Super Comp without any modification.

Starline sells 38 Super brass. No you will not likely see a benefit in changing.

[rintinglen]

rintinglen....have to agree that it was advertised as a sportsmen's cartridge but a lot of police agencies adopted the guns... If you go to the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame there are a lot of Supers on display... They knew a good thing when the saw it...

Name one agency that ever adopted the 38 Super and I'll catch a crow and eat it.

That a few individual officers bought one and carried it on duty when so allowed is indisputable, but to the best of my knowledge this is just a case of aficionados making a case where there is none to be had. No U.S. law enforcement agency of any size ever adopted the 38 super. For the first 20 years of it's existence, it averaged about 3,600 guns a year in sales, for the first 40 years, just about 5,000 a year were produced. It modern (post 1980 guns) it is as good as just about anything else you can stuff in a 1911, though in my experience the 45 ACP is more reliable. Unless you need (want) a 20 round magazine in an STI, the advantages touted for the Super 38 are of little or no value, save for the fun of reloading, and having, something different. I load 32 H&R, 327 Federal, 38 S&W, 9mm Largo, 9MM Browning Long and .303 Savage. But these are not mainstream, nor are they ever likely to be mainstream. They are fun. So is the 38 Super.

[evort]

I bought a Sig P220 38 Super (American magazine release) a few weeks ago. I'm working on loading some Acme and Bayou .356 150g SWC coated for it, should be fun. I made some dummies of varying length to make sure they chamber.

[RJM52]

...how do you like your crow....

It is a hard to find book but there is one called COLT's .38 SUPER The Production History. by Douglas Sheldon. Page 85:

Vermont Motor Vehicle Department (Highway Patrol). 25 pistols 1934. 6 more pistols in 1935 and seven more in 1937.

Burrlington, Vermont PD. 1936. Initial order was 31 pistols.

Escanaba, Mi. PD 1934

St. Louis PD...82 total pistols in 1934. They were in inventory till decommissioned in 1986

And these were just the orders that were factory engraved with the Department ID Number. There is no indication of orders from police departments that didn't have their guns engraved by the factory.

Other agencies receiving guns:
1933-1935: US Justice Department 200. Last shipment in 1935 was listed to the Fed. Bureau of Invest.

Many LE agencies, especially smaller ones, didn't have issue weapons because they could not afford it. So LEOs had to provide their own...

So while not many there were some...

Never say "never"...Bob

ps...I should not have said "a lot" of agencies adopted the gun...would have been more correct in saying they were often found in LE.

[John in WYO]

Found Dawson Precision sells an extractor that should work: Aftec

[rintinglen]

Does anyone have a recipe for crow?
I am dumfounded--my wife would leave out the founded--that any agency in the Depression would spend the big bucks (36.75) to buy a Super 38, when a perfectly good 38 Colt 38 revolver could be had for a third less. I did know, and ought to have remembered, that the FBI bought some back in the Dillinger days, though they were never an regular issue weapon, but like the Thompson SMG and the BAR, could be issued on an as needed basis.

[6thtexas]

If I ever get another 1911 I want a .38 Super, It used to be real popular in Mexico where "military calibers" were not allowed even for the local and state judicial police. Used to be a sporting goods store years ago in Brownsville TX that ordered .38 Super ammunition by the pallets and I would not drop dead to learn that 95% crossed the river. It also had some following with folks like the Texas Rangers in the early '30s. Frank Hamer was wearing a .38 Super for his sidearm when he disposed of Clyde Barrow, not his Colt SAA nor his S&W Triplelock. He carried the Super because in 1934 that was the only handgun cartridge that would reliably penetrate a car door of the period. Seem like I read somewhere that one reason S&W brought out the .357 was to compete with Colt's auto.

[Texas by God]

The first centerfire auto pistol i ever fired was a Star commercial model( not a 9mm Largo) .38 Super that belonged to my great aunts son. He was a character; a divorced airline pilot with a nice car with a Police folding stock 870, a 742 BDL 30-06, and the Star in the trunk when he traveled. He explained the pistol to me, showed me how to field strip it and clean it, then turned me loose with a double handful of cartridges to roam the farm. I noticed right away that it was loud and had some recoil to it! Despite my ringing ears, I did manage to kill a mud turtle and several mud catfish fingerlings swimming in a ball. It hooked me on 1911 type autos from then on, but being 10 years old, I had to wait for what seemed like forever before I got my first one. Not a .38 Super, but a Crown City Arms .45; it was that or a Llama because I couldn't afford a Colt.
It is a good cartridge, and we shot several in my brother's Ruger Security Six one day. I don't know if the Supers were on the small side or the Ruger chambers were on the large side, but it worked.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[uscra112]

http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.html

[RJM52]

The .38 Super is still very popular in Mexico...mainly with drug dealers. The blog Boarderland Beat (now off-line) used to have a lot of after shootout pics with 1911s strune all over the place with silver grips on them...many were Supers.

Go over to GunBroker and look at all the $2K+ engraved Colts with Mexican themes... Also run .38 SUPER on ebay and see the $2-700 silver and gold grips that come up...and funny they look a lot like the grips in the pictures from "down South"...haven't seen one set at an IDPA match yet...

glen...even back in the 1930s LEOs knew the .38 Special was a "widow-maker". S&W came up with the .38-44 Heavy Duty shooting the .38 Special High Speed running a 158 grain lead or metal-piercing bullet to counter Colt's .38 ACP. Velocity was in the 1150 area depending on barrel length...then the SUPER .38 at 1300 fps and S&W again countered with the .357...but only in a REAL high dollar gun. That's why there are a lot of Heavy Duties out there with chambers lengthened to .357...way less expensive gun.

Bob

[Idaho45guy]

Was sorting through some .40 S&W range brass I ordered online and came across a shell with another skinnier and longer shell inside of it. Pulled it out and inspected it and it was a .38 Super shell. I thought it was pretty cool. First time I'd ever handled one.