Casual discussion: What's the deal with .38 Super?

[country gent]

Overall length of the 38 super limits it to the bigger pistols like 1911s and such they are to long to go into a high power, or 9mm sized grip frame. The 357 sig 40 S&W 45 gap are shorter cartridges to fit in a 9MM grip frame.

The 1911s in 38 spl are only capable of wadcutter loads only do to overall length.

Every one is so concered with capacity, safe action / double action and most of these wont allow the super. By a lot of the tacti crowd today cocked and locked is obsolete and unsafe. a 6-8 round pistol is obsolete. I have worked with the super for years in several 1911s. the federal Hydra shock load is effective on game animals. The few safety slugs Ive used were also very destructive. It is easy to load for, easy on powder. Shoots softer than some. Mine have all been accurate pistols.

Another plus to the super is on the range I dont have people trying to grab my brass LOL.

[megasupermagnum]

The .357 SIG...if I was back in LE it is the round I would want to carry. Moderate recoil, lots of rounds and lots of power...whats not to like...

Bob

The fact that you can have the exact same gun, with the exact same capacity in 40 s&w, and get a good boost in performance with less expensive ammo. Plus brass is everywhere, and could just about be collected with a big scoop shovel. That's just my opinion, but someone did bring up a good point on the 357 sig. Higher velocities with the SIG should allow better penetration through barriers. That's something that most of us outside law enforcement do not care about.

[Petrol & Powder]

You also should consider that not everyone is equally situated.

Not everyone shooting the 357 SIG is paying for their ammunition OR reloading.

[megasupermagnum]

Hey, I'd take whatever caliber someone gave me if ammo was free.

[Idaho45guy]

Hah! I know exactly what the OP is referring to when talking about .38 Super being left on the shelf. I was in the exact same gun shop and took a pic of the .38 Super ammo since they had to post a sign saying it wasn't .38 Special...

Attachment 271733

[RJM52]

Just bought my first 1911 in .357 SIG...a SIG Nightmare Carry... Other than the SIX POUND ONE OUNCE CREEPY CRUDDY trigger pull it is excellent...and no longer made. Gave it to a smith I use and he installed a 5" SIG made .38 Super barrel and did a nice 3# 11 oz. trigger job...no more creeps...and runs like a top in both calibers. May even install Fusion 10mm and .40 S&W barrels.

Also have .357 barrels in a G40/4, G35/5 and 23/3.

...as reloading...not yet. Was lucky enough to be able to buy a whole bunch fairly inexpensively so until they are all gone don't have to load...just keep picking up brass.

Bob

[1006]

I believe that:
The 10mm, 38 Super, Winchester 9x23, and 45 ACP were all designed with a 1911 in mind.

Their length allows them to feed reliably in a standard non ramped barrel when fired in a 1911, and their magazines do not require any extra spacers.

The 10mm, and 9x23 have extra brass strength built into their design to allow for higher pressure in an unsupported chamber, common to the standard 1911 non ramped barrel.

[oso]

Having a semi-rimmed automatic cartridge is such a wacky design choice considering the mostly "rimless" brass we see in autos these days. Considering the rim, that would only be single stack magazine friendly, and probably warrants the use of .38 Super in various 1911 styled pistols.

I'd rather not be the engineer tasked with the duty of creating a .38 Super pistol that sports a double stack magazine for modern standards of capacity. Would a double stack magazine for rimmed cartridges even be possible without some technical wizardry? A serpentine path for the rims to ride on? A hairpin turn in the path the bullets rest in the magazine?

Our family has had no problem with the 38 Super in any of various double stack magazines.
We have seen problems with the tapered 9mm Luger nose diving at the top of full magazines. By the way the 9mm Luger does have a tiny semi-rim.
No need to believe me. https://web.archive.org/web/20170424...9mm-cartridge/

[1006]

They seem to run quite well in double stack mags in 1911 style guns, certainly as well as the 9mm in a 1911. The 9mm case is quite a bit larger at the base than the mouth.

[pietro]

The .38 Super came to be because some countries prohibit handguns in the same chambering/caliber as their military handguns (generally 9mm Parabellum).

Those countries typically don't have .40S&W & .45ACP ammo readily available, never mind the guns to fire those cartridges.

The Super allowed those folks who wanted a 1911-type 9mm to have an autoloader on the same frame.


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[megasupermagnum]

Having a semi-rimmed automatic cartridge is such a wacky design choice considering the mostly "rimless" brass we see in autos these days. Considering the rim, that would only be single stack magazine friendly, and probably warrants the use of .38 Super in various 1911 styled pistols.

I'd rather not be the engineer tasked with the duty of creating a .38 Super pistol that sports a double stack magazine for modern standards of capacity. Would a double stack magazine for rimmed cartridges even be possible without some technical wizardry? A serpentine path for the rims to ride on? A hairpin turn in the path the bullets rest in the magazine?

Most 38 super guns used in competition are double stack. That's where 38 super is popular currently. No wizardry required, 32 acp is also a semi-rim, and also works great in a double stack.

[Kosh75287]

But when the "P" in IPSC became silent...

This made me burst into laughter. It couldn't be more true! Thanks for THAT one!

[dtknowles]

Hah! I know exactly what the OP is referring to when talking about .38 Super being left on the shelf. I was in the exact same gun shop and took a pic of the .38 Super ammo since they had to post a sign saying it wasn't .38 Special...

Attachment 271733

I cringe at people shoot this ammo in some older 38 Specials, it certainly exceeds 38 Special SAAMI specs but should be fine in .357 mag.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I believe that:
The 10mm, 38 Super, Winchester 9x23, and 45 ACP were all designed with a 1911 in mind.

Their length allows them to feed reliably in a standard non ramped barrel when fired in a 1911, and their magazines do not require any extra spacers.

The 10mm, and 9x23 have extra brass strength built into their design to allow for higher pressure in an unsupported chamber, common to the standard 1911 non ramped barrel.

I might note that the 1911 is not the only gun that can handle the longer ammo. At the risk of raising the ire of the 1911 crowd. The EAA Witness is a wonderful gun that can handle the longer ammo and has a more modern trigger the 1911 and has the option of a single action trigger if you want it.

I have a Witness in 9mm on the shorter frame with the single action only trigger. These are quality guns.

This is an awesome gun.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...%20the%20slide.

Tim

[megasupermagnum]

I like the Witness. It is a good option for a lower priced 10mm auto that can also be very accurate. I think the 1911 makes a better hunting gun. I like the heft and trigger better on the 1911. The big drawback for me, is I don't like the safety's of the 1911. I wish someone would make one of the same basic design, but ditch the thumb safety, and make it a DA/SA. I could take or leave the grip safety. I guess most people call that a SIG P220 though, which I do enjoy mine.

[dtknowles]

I like the Witness. It is a good option for a lower priced 10mm auto that can also be very accurate. I think the 1911 makes a better hunting gun. I like the heft and trigger better on the 1911. The big drawback for me, is I don't like the safety's of the 1911. I wish someone would make one of the same basic design, but ditch the thumb safety, and make it a DA/SA. I could take or leave the grip safety. I guess most people call that a SIG P220 though, which I do enjoy mine.

I think they make the Witness in a steel frame if you want the heft and yes it would be hard to beat the 1911 trigger but if you make it DA/SA you will end up with a trigger like the Witness. The Witness has the thumb safety but if you buy the DA/SA version you can ignore the thumb safety.

The P220 is probably a great gun. I have never seen one in person. It looks a little ugly and it is only a single stack so mag capacity is limited. They discontinued the 38 super version.

Tim

[Kosh75287]

I'm a bit "standardized" in terms of calibers I shoot and for which I reload, but if I had the money, I'd probably own a double-stacked 1911 (2011?) in .38 Super. Another contributor on this site is using SAECO #383 140 gr. LSWCs pushed to 1240 f/s, with apparently fine ( dare I say "super"?) results. That's good performance for nearly ANY application.
SOME day that there's no percentage in owning "off-beat" calibers, and yet we see the ammo on the shelves when all the "mainstream" fodder has evaporated. This makes me think my CZ-52 pistol wasn't a bad purchase, after all.

[Petrol & Powder]

The .38 Super came to be because some countries prohibit handguns in the same chambering/caliber as their military handguns (generally 9mm Parabellum).


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I don't think the 38 Super "Came to be ....." due to some counties that prohibit civilian possession of military calibers but I think it would be fair to say that people in those counties exploited the fact that 38 Super was not restricted.

The 38 ACP (on which the 38 Super is based) pre-dates the 9 x 19 by a couple of years. In addition, many of the laws restricting private possession of military cartridges didn't come about until after the creation of the 38 Super. So the 38 Super couldn't have been created to circumvent laws that that didn't exist.
It is fair to say those laws did later help keep the 38 Super alive.

[VariableRecall]

Most 38 super guns used in competition are double stack. That's where 38 super is popular currently. No wizardry required, 32 acp is also a semi-rim, and also works great in a double stack.

I guess more technically minded engineers figured it out!

[salvadore]

there is a boat\load of misinformation concerning the super 38 here, I salute post #10. I purchased my plain jane Colt 1911 last year and used Brian Pierce's loads in handloader, settled on a 124 grain power pistol load that averages 1330fps. It's a sweetie and while the .357 Sig out does it, I don't know what reloading problems may be. Accuracy is not an issue, before the frenzy, brass was readily available. Replaced the mainspring housing with a steel checkered one and a lanyard device and the hammer with a WWII hammer. My bubba trigger job left me with a very nice light pull. My super 38 is primo, and a favorite.