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Thread: Being very cautious, please check me out

  1. #1
    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    Being very cautious, please check me out

    Please check me out on this. I’m allergic to blowing my shotgun up and my head along with it.

    My shotgun bore, I’m told it’s cyl bore sans choke (KelTec KS7). The muzzle of the shotgun measures .725. I tried to insert the 7/8 oz LEE slug with wad into the muzzle. It didn’t want to go and I didn’t force it. My measurement gets .732 with the slug in the wad and measured across the petals. The slug itself isn’t round and I get .687 as the largest diameter near where the curve of the nose of the slug starts. I get the petals of the wad as being .025" (it varies a few thousandths) in thickness.

    OK, so in the interest of not blowing myself up I see a conflict with me trying to get something too big down the bore. Yet I already loaded 2 of these before measuring and survived. No sticky extraction and no crazy big expanded brass base on the fired shell as compared to a factory load. It expanded .008 as compared to an unfired virgin shot shell. But if it’s dangerous (and here’s what I need reassurance about or a “DON”T DO IT!” issued to me) I’d like to know before loading more. Does the poly wad have enough “give” so as not to act like a barrel obstruction? Am I concerned about nothing? Is that snug fit a good thing?

    I’m in a place where I have no information in the grey matter and little to go by and my intent is to be super cautious. I feel like a human land mine detector, a gent with fingers in the ears and testing for landmines by stomping the ground with a foot.

    Note that I’m not asking if the load I’m using is safe. I deliberately didn’t mention the load.

    I hope I asked the right questions and supplied enough data.

    Thanks folks!

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    A question before I give a partial answer...

    Are your slugs cast from soft lead or wheelweights?

    The HB/Foster type slugs are generally designed to be able to be shot through a full choke so at only 0.007" over your 0.725" bore and inside a plastic wad I don't see an issue if soft lead. If wheelweights I doubt there will be a pressure issue but the wad petals will get squished and I suspect accuracy may suffer but of course you'd have to try to find out. Since you didn't get sticky extraction I'd venture to say that pressure is fine regardless of alloy.

    It would help to know your load recipe or at least pressure. If the recipe is a 10,000 + PSI load then I'd be a bit wary and watching for any sticky extraction at all. If you do not find sticky extraction after a dozen or so shots I'd accept that as good. If you are using a 7000 PSI load recipe there is a lot of room there for minor pressure increases so I wouldn't be concerned about this combination.

    If you can get wads with thinner petals of say 0.020" or raise the slug up in the shotcup, if there's room, the petals should be thinner near the top. That applies mostly if your slug is sitting deep in the shotcup or you are cutting petals short. My Winchester wads run about 0.020" thick petals where the slug sits so that would wind up being loose in your bore.

    So, I guess a partial answer, but I wouldn't be concerned about pressure if you didn't get sticky extraction. The petals will squish and the slug is tapered so very small bearing area at the nose... so again at that small bearing area the petals will squish easily and possibly even shear though I doubt your fit is that tight. You could also trim petals to just reach the largest diameter of the slug nose if you are concerned. That would eliminate the tight fit and squish entirely.

    Hmmm... looking at your numbers: 0.687"+0.025"+0.025" = 0.737" (at the ogive) yet you measured 0.732". How did you measure - vernier or micrometer? If micrometer you may have squished a bit.

    Regardless, I wouldn't worry about it unless you get sticky extraction shooting some more.

    If you shoot more of this combination look for wads after shooting. The wads will tell a story. If they are in good condition and accuracy is good... and you aren't getting sticky extraction, then you are good. If wad petals are mangled or sheared and accuracy is poor then you need to make adjustments regardless of pressure signs.

    I hope that makes sense... I tend to have a habit of over explaining... and rambling... wait, what was I saying?

    Longbow

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Also, it is important to note HOW you measured your barrel. If you simply used a standard reloading caliper, that is not precise enough. It is almost impossible to get truly accurate measurements of an interior diameter with such a caliper. You really need to slug your barrel, then measure the slug...or, at worst, measure the barrel interior with an inside micrometer. Either way, you need to take a number of measurements around the circumference...then average the results.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    if you follow a published slug load recipe from a reputable source, such as Lymans shotshell reloading manual, or a manual from ballistic products or a loads from the Hodgdon web site reloading data center, and follow the recipe exactly with prescribed shell, primer, powder wad and slug. there should be no reason to worry if fired in a good shotgun with improved cylinder, barrel or choke, improved cylinder is wide open compared to full or a turkey choke.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Don't worry about the safety aspect. You would have to have a slug so big, or wad so thick that the loaded ammo would not fit into the chamber before you even came close to causing a problem. It is a soft plastic wad, they compress very easy, especially when there is a hollow lead slug inside. You want a tight fit. It is my experience that a slug/wad combo that can easily be pushed into the bore is a waste of time as far as accuracy. I've found accuracy gets better, the tighter the fit, right up until the wad petals fail.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    Thanks gents!

    I'll continue bearing in mind everything written. I was sorta hoping the soft wad would make it golden.

    edit: So I just gave this more thought as regarding what happens when a wad full of shot is fired. The pressure pushes up from below, but the inertia of the mass of shot resists that. It would have an expanding and crushing effect that bears on the walls of the barrel. Basically resulting in exactly what I tried to describe as my concern. Except in my concern the "shot", a slug in my case, would have minimal expansion from the force exerted from below.

    To give more clarity, sorry I didn't include this before, but I wanted to just get the bore obstruction question settled first.

    I am using wheelweights and not pure lead.

    The load data I'm using is from here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzStAOvVKJY

    Somewhere in it he answers the question about the load he uses. I'm using his suggested wad, and the powder charge is 20g of Red Dot. I backed it down for the first 2 loads one of which had a gas seal. I backed the charge down due to the speed of the powder and me stepping into the unknown. From here on I'll set up the chronograph and go by speed and accuracy and not to exceed that charge. If I can get decent accuracy out to 50 yards and 1200ish fps I'll call it good.

    Why no gas seal? It was suggested elsewhere that by not using one I was getting blowby and that would act as a sort of relief valve. There was a huge difference in the shooting experience when none was used and when I added one.
    Last edited by BJK; 11-16-2020 at 11:15 AM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Plastic gas seals do just that... seal! And they do a pretty good job of it.

    Old style loads used only hard card wads and nitro card wads for seals and there was quite a bit of blow by (I can speak from experience there!). I do not know if the amount of blow by is predictable or not and I'd hesitate to guess.

    It would certainly be safe to use a load that called for a plastic gas seal and not put one in but quite possibly not so for the reverse. I suspect the blow by/leakage is a lot more with slow powder than fast powder as well but that is just my gut feeling and a bit of what I hope is common sense.

    Old style loads, like new loads using plastic gas seals, were pressure tested then load data published so I doubt the amount of blow by if predictable. However, it is unlikely that you will be loading to an old recipe then adding a plastic gas seal so not likely to be something you will ever have to worry about.

    Your analogy of shot pushing out on the bore is quite correct. The shot acts as a fluid so creates a sidewall drag all the way down the barrel, where slugs tend to swage down (if they are oversize) then have little drag the rest of the way. There are many posts and reports that slugs generate less pressure for same powder charge and payload than shot loads due to less bore drag. As msm mentions though a really oversize slug, especially if solid, could produce a pressure spike but I think he is right that "oversize" enough to create pressure problems might not chamber. I have shot many 0.735" round balls with no problem and they are considerably oversize but loads still chamber fine.

    Again, using a Lee slug in a plastic shotcup over a powder charge designated for birdshot should not be an issue at all. Also, to consider is that Ithaca used to make their smoothbore Deerslayer barrels with a considerably undersize bore when Foster slugs were the norm. I have read that they ran 0.705" to 0.710" full length of the bore so TIGHT! Those barrels were meant for Foster style slugs (like your Lee slug).

    Longbow

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    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    Thanks. While I read and take notes I understand that it's all on me, as it should be.

    Today I loaded 10 for testing w/16gr of RD. I'm just waiting on weather.

  9. #9
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    Greetings, here is a chart with different wads and as you can see Winchester yellow wad is the thinnest one AA112 F 1411 second thinnest Fed 12C-1, next one Fed purple 12 S 3 and so on, with all the efforts that goes in loading slugs for accuracy do not even touch clones that just fall apart !

    Hoping it helps.
    Regards,
    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 03-05-2021 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    Thanks. I don't know if what I'm using counts as a clone, but if I remember correctly it's "claybuster" I don't remember more and I'm unsure as to that.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I should correct my last post some. Lee slugs in shotcups were not around in the early days of the tight bored Deerslayers. Lyman Foster slugs or factory Foster slugs were about the only choices then... possibly the Rapine slug moulds were available but they were similar to the Lyman Foster except bore diameter instead of undersize like the Lyman slug and many factory Foster slugs. Those undersize soft slugs obturate to fill the bore at firing though so effectively bore size.

    Longbow

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    LB those Ithaca Deer Slayers were essentially Cylinder Bore with an IC Choke. Browning followed suit in the Buck Special Barrels.

    My gun shoots Federal Low Recoil Slugs under 2" at 50 yards and my Lee Slug Reloads the same. It also patterns Buckshot very well, and close to my Vang Comped Mossbergs. I settled on the 18 gr of Green Dot with the Federal Blue Hulls as my standard Smoothbore Slug Load but it shoots best from the A5 Buck Special Barrel.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-20-2020 at 05:30 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I never owned a Deer Slayer, but I've been told by a number who did, that the bores were tight. Something like .720" for a 12 gauge. This allowed a better fit for most rifled slugs.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have never owned Deer Slayer but I have read in different forums that they ran as tight as 0.690" (which seems too tight!) on one site and 0.705" to 0.710" on a couple of other sites... and that is supposedly full length of the bore... not a cylinder bore with choke.

    Several other posts I seen simply say they were very tight.

    My Browning BPS Buck & Slug barrel is cylinder bore with what they can an I/C choke which measures 0.710" so tight for an I/C choke. I have not but should check the cylinder bore portion for diameter.

    My Mossberg Slugster runs right about 0.729" though that was just checked with calipers. It is tighter than my single shot which slugs to 0.733".

    So, not sure of actual Deer Slayer dimensions but I did read an article many years ago saying that Ithaca used tight bores just as msm says... so the typically undersize Foster slugs fit better. I have not mic's a factory Foster slug but my Lyman Foster slugs cast at 0.705". When cast from soft lead they do slug up to bore dimension but do so unevenly as indicated by recovered slugs. If they are going to slug up anyway, why not just make then at 0.729"/0.730"? Who knows.

    But again, I digress.

    The point of bring up the Deer Slayer is that they have (or at least used to have) a significantly tighter bore than most shotguns but that didn't wreak havoc with pressure.

    Alliant Red Dot loads for 7/8 oz. birdshot in Win AA hulls are listed here:

    https://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...eid=3&gauge=12

    16 grs. of Red Dot for his test loads should be mild. Alliant does not list a Red Dot powder charge heavier than 19 grs. though in Win AA hulls. They are showing load data for 19 grs. of Red Dot in Win AA hull giving pressure of 10,300 PSI. 20 grs. may be high depending on hull, primer and wad combination. Straight walled hulls should run lower pressure for same powder charge. You can look up whatever hull you have to get load data.

    Longbow

  15. #15
    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    Soaking it all up. Thanks. I'm trying to supply as much information as I have with what follows just in case someone sees a red flag.

    Someone mentioned blow by, or maybe it was just me . The load data in the video, or in the comments under the video states 20g Red Dot. I've tried that load with 7/8 oz shot and it worked fine. But I'm also not using a gas seal. It's a Claybuster wad with everything below the wad cup cut off. I'm definitely not going to just jump to 20 grains if I get there at all. I think I'll be OK, but again, I'm going to slowly work my way up to it. It's been a very long time since I tried to get the most out of a shell or cartridge by pushing things to the brink. I gave that up decades ago and now just load moderately. Looking at velocity at Longbows link, yeah, that's more than I want or need. But the chrono' will let me know. I might even back off of my 16 gr test load if I can. I'm pretty serious about not wanting to push velocity. I'm really happy with an accurate and sedate load. If I take up 3gun I'll use it there, but for now it's for HD, especially the 15 #4 buckshot load that was a spin-off from this.

    Just an off the wall observation and it surprised me due to the speed of the powder. Even in bright sunlight the flash from it is pretty bright. I expected the powder to be spent long before the ejecta made it out of the barrel.

    Hulls, I bought a few hundred Rio primed hulls. I only bought them because that's what I could find; no other reason. The wads just push in without effort. I expect the biggest source holding the wad and slug back is the rolled crimp. Hopefully just long enough to get a good burn going. More like a metallic cartridge than a shotshell, there is nothing between the wad cup holding the 7/8oz slug or .7 oz (15 #4 buckshot) shot. The wad with payload is just pushed down onto the powder. I'm thinking even the buckshot load has lots of blowby since shot that big just can't do what smaller shot can do on ignition as far as sealing the bore.

    If I don't get accuracy from what I've got I'll need to either refine my components or just accept the recoil hit and use 2 3/4" commercial slugs. The Aguila mini-slugs appear accurate enough, they just don't feed 100% in my shotgun for whatever reason. I had one swap ends and I can't have that. My 2" shells haven't done that. I don't think it possible that they can swap ends in my gun.

    I'm rambling.

  16. #16
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    Kent: the Ithaca's had/have .729-.730 bores and are choked down to .715 at the muzzle. The people who measure these with calipers think it is the muzzle dimension goes all the way thru. We all know it doesn't.

    The only way to properly measure a shotgun bore is with a Shotgun Bore Gage which can probe down the barrel 8-10". I have a friend who makes them and we measured the bores on several of my shotgun barrels one afternoon. My A5 Buck Special barrel was .729/.715 My Vang Comped M500 barrel was .745/.730...

    I almost bought a Deerslayer barrel for my M37 a year ago and probably should have because they were running around $100-150. now they are are $300+

    Here's something I didn't know about. A Fully Rifled Deerslayer barrel https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ithaca-37-8...UAAOSw38JfdhVa

    Wonder how they shoot?

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Okay... you lost me a bit.

    When you say "there is nothing between the wad cup holding the 7/8oz slug or .7 oz (15 #4 buckshot) shot. The wad with payload is just pushed down onto the powder." and you mention Aguila mini-slugs I am thinking you are making short hull loads?

    Maybe time for my usual lecture to new shotshell reloaders!

    Loading shotshells is not like reloading metallic cartridges. Load recipes are developed for a specific set of components that all work together to produce the required velocity at acceptable pressures. Changes of components can and usually do result in changes in pressure and maybe velocity. That's with same powder charge and payload.

    Also, pressure signs in shotshells are not like metallic cartridge so it is difficult to safely "work up a load" from scratch or even increase safely from a published load recipe. Pressure can increase quite dramatically from change of hull, primer and even wad assuming same powder charge and payload. A change of primer from one brand of 209 to another can affect pressure by 3000 PSI which is a lot! 209 primers are not created equal. That according to Tom Armbrust's published pressure tests.

    If you get sticky extraction the load is well over safe pressure!

    Velocity doesn't necessarily go up in proportion to pressure according to at least one loading manual I have. Pressure can jump dramatically without much if any increase in velocity with component changes.

    From my own experience and cross referencing load data between cushion leg wad loads and hard card wad loads (no cushion leg) it appears that cutting the cushion leg off a wad can raise pressure when everything else remains the same. My take is that much like seating a boolit deeper in a brass cartridge, cutting the cushion leg off results in less volume at ignition because of no give so the pressure can spike. Less volume = higher pressure.

    The safest approach is to use published load recipes for 7/8 oz. birdshot but substitute the slug of equal weight. If you want to make short hulls then best to use published data for short hulls, it is available.

    If you are using a published recipe for 7/8 oz. birdshot that is low pressure (say 6000 to 7000 PSI) there is a lot of room for pressure increase before it gets dangerous. Cutting a cushion leg off for a recipe like that wouldn't likely get you in trouble. However, if the published pressure for that load is 10,000 PSI making changes could put you into dangerous territory.

    Another issue is that if you are cutting off the cushion leg and gas seal then pushing the shotcup with slug right onto the powder there will be LOTS of blow by! I would be surprised if you got any accuracy at all doing that due to inconsistent powder burn and shotcup damage. Again, from my own experience of loading slugs in shotcups with no cushion leg or gas seal then loaded over nitro card wad and hard card wads there was enough leakage to melt the shotcups!

    Best to use pressure tested published data which is available at powder company websites (like the Alliant link) and for short hulls Ballistic Products Inc. has load data available:

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Br...info/00BSHORT/

    It is safe to reduce powder charge for a given load then make up the volume difference with nitro card wad(s) if you want less recoil but best to start with published safe load data. The worst that will happen with lower powder charge is possibly a blooper and slug that doesn't make it out of the bore so becomes a blockage for subsequent shots if not removed.

    Some more info on short hulls and reloading shotshells:

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...nch-shotshell/

    https://www.guns.com/news/review/how...shells-and-why

    https://www.guns.com/news/2017/07/14...oading-safety/

    If you don't want to read through it all then at least take heed of this warning:

    “You cannot safely substitute components or change ingredient ratios of shotshell recipes. Primers, propellant, pellet payloads, wads, and even hulls are carefully matched for a given recipe… a simple change in the gas seal of a wad or the plastic of a hull can easily make the load unsafe.”

    Sorry to be so wordy and sound all lectury like but after having blown up a shotgun loading short hulls I feel a bit obligated to try to save someone else the inconvenience and danger of repeating my mistake.

    Play but play safe!

    Longbow

  18. #18
    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    Not exactly published data that I'm using. It was in the video (yeah I know) that I posted the link to.

    As I wrote, if I can get accuracy I'll be happy. If not, well it was an experiment. My initial question was not about accuracy, I'll find that out soon enough, but about safety. That was precisely why I withheld the load data to get that answer and only after that answer did I release what the actual load is. Yes, I know that shotshells and metallic aren't at all alike. That is precisely the point of this entire thread.

    Yeah, poly melts at 300ish degrees and powder burns at a few thousand. I see melting in the future of the wads too. But again, I'll find out. I have 10 loaded with 16 gr of Red Dot. I'm just waiting for a decent day to test them. I might get something more like a pattern rather than a group. But I have what I have at this point and the data came from that most reliable source known as youtube. The trust I have for youtube videos is exactly why I asked questions; for safety.

    If I can't get what I want with what I'm doing I'll purchase the BP load data. Thanks for the link. I'm in no hurry I'll get there when I get there but I don't expect to spend a lot of time trying to get what I'm doing to work with what I have. It either works or it doesn't. This all started with a buckshot load and then I realized maybe it could be more when I saw the video.

    I do appreciate the help and the concern and I'm thankful for both.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Okay, I just wanted to make sure you weren't drifting too far from acceptable data or unaware what a primer change can result in pressure wise.

    Assuming your pressure is okay, my experience with Lee slugs of both 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. is mediocre accuracy out to 50 yards. My good round ball loads shoot better groups than I have been able to get with Lee slugs though the Lee slugs do okay at about 6" to 8" at 50 yards. Playing with wads and such might tighten that up some.

    With the relatively tight fit you have with slug in shotcup to barrel, melting plastic due to leakage may not be a big issue but you'll find out soon enough. If you get melted plastic in the bore it is easy enough to clean out with a bronze brush (again, I speak from experience here!). Not a big deal. Using a gas seal should stop that if it is a problem. The only time I have had any significant plastic build up in a shotgun bore was using black powder and plastic shotcups.

    As mentioned I did get blow by and damaged wads using shotcups with slug but no cushion leg or gas seal, just nitro card and hard card wad column. That didn't result in plastic build up in the bire but shotcups were badly burned and accuracy was very poor.

    I think that's all I have to offer so I'll shut up and let you get on with it.

    Good luck and please post results.

    Longbow

  20. #20
    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    I'm filing everything away in the grey matter, so keep it coming. If I get 6-8" accuracy at 50 yards I won't find that acceptable. In that case I'll buy the BP data and start over. 6-8" I call a pattern and not a group.

    I will definitely post results. If it's terrible we'll know of yet another recipe that doesn't work. The gent in the video never talked about accuracy that I remember, only alluded that it would go bang. Noise doesn't impress me, I want more than just a loud noise.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check