Being very cautious, please check me out

[longbow]

Not sure what sort of accuracy you are expecting but I doubt you will get any better than 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards from smoothbore using a hollow base slug. My good round ball groups run 3" to 4" at 50 yards and are better than any other home cast slug I have tried.

I have gotten some very good accuracy from several factory Foster slugs. I have also gotten some very good accuracy from home loaded Gualandi DGS slugs and AQ slugs. I have not been able to match the accuracy of those with any home made slugs I have tried to date.

Longbow

[BJK]

Maybe my expectations are too high. It wouldn't be the first time.

From what you write if I can get 3-4" groups I'll be happy. Factory Remington slugs would give me 3" groups @75 yards out of a full stocked shotgun that has since gone down the road so that's at least what I want (I know, I know! High expectations!). I probably ought to dissect an Aguila mini-slug and find out what's inside. I'm betting a full caliber slug. Heck, I have time to dissect one right now. I'll be back.

(the pitter patter of feet can be heard receding)

(the same pitter patter can be heard coming back some minutes later)

OK, the slug has a hollow base and the wad is solid poly extending into and completely filling the base of the slug. It has a gas sealing skirt that is quite tight in the hull. I needed longnose pliers to remove it.

measurements:

slug: .690d
skirt of the gas seal w/o crushing it: .740d

I didn't measure where the "wad" met the slug, but it feels flush except for 8 ribs running the length of the wad to (I assume) help center the slug in the bore. The ribs end where the gas seal begins, as I would expect. The entire assembly is approx' 1 1/16" long and nothing holds the wad in place but the roll crimp.

[longbow]

Well, some have claimed 3" to 4" accuracy to 100 yards with smoothbore and slugs but I think that is optimistic to expect that consistently. I have as yet to achieve that... consistently.

I can say that I shot a group of between 4" and 6" at 100 yards with 0.735" balls but that was an exception. usually groups have run something like 3 shots in 4" to 6" and one or two out around 10" to 12" with some groups scattered all over in about 12".

At 50 yards same load gives consistent groups of about 4" +/- a bit and often 4" or less. I consider that good for a smoothbore.

The Gualandi DGS slugs gave me 2" to 3" at 50 yards so if that held up, 4" to 6" at 100 yards but likely groups would be larger.

Best I have done so far is about 6" groups at 100 yards from Browning BPS with Buck & Slug barrel, open sights using Federal Sluggers and also AQ slugs home loaded.

With a mini slug load I suspect good consistent accuracy will be more difficult due to the long jump through chamber to forcing cone... is your gun 2 3/4" or 3" chamber? RanchDog and others have found that hull length matching chamber length provides better accuracy than say 2 3/4" hull in 3" chamber.

With that Aquila mini slug at 0.690" diameter that is considerably undersize even for your tight bore so unless it slugs up to fill the bore it is a rattle fit. Possibly the wad will keep it centered? I'm guessing you have shot some of these already? Accuracy? I'd be using a factory slug load for comparison and try to match that accuracy. I have had few home made slug loads that will equal factory Foster slugs loads for accuracy to 50 yards and beyond.

Longbow

[BJK]

3"chamber. I can't imagine shooting 3" shells out of this lightweight gun (Keltec KS7). To shoot 3" slugs out of it is even more unimaginable. My previous shotgun was a 2 3/4" chambered 870 and it did pretty good with Rem slugs. But I was 30 years younger too and recoil didn't bother me.

I've shot less than 20 of the mini-slugs at 25 yards. They don't really like to cycle 100% in my gun; but they mostly cycle in it. I had 1 major malfunction in <40ish mini-shells. The shell flipped end for end. I think the problem with the mini-slugs and my gun is mostly me. I think it's how I pulled back on the pump handle. But anyway what I was doing was just for kicks and to put the red dot more or less in agreement with the bore.

I was actually amazed at what I saw with them and there's a reason I shot so few. What I expected was to make an adjustment in the sights and maybe see a shifting of the group as a whole. But what happened was that I would make a sight change and immediately next shot the change was seen exactly where it should have been. It was more like shooting a rifled barrel than what I expected to see. Over on another forum 2 of us commented on this and we both observed exactly the same thing. I have no idea if it was just the 2 of us, but not everyone takes part in online conversations.

Frankly, the gun is too light for me to fire full recoil slugs out of it unless I absolutely must and that need hasn't arrived yet.

[W.R.Buchanan]

In this case I load Lee Slugs (going to cast up a bunch today) in Federal Blue Low Recoil Slug Hulls. I load them to shoot at steel targets that are essentially 12x18" So if they group at <6" at 50 yards from smoothbore barrels I'm happy. They are actually 2 1/2-3" at 50 yards and that's good enough.

These are loaded in what are essentially trap loads around 1200 fps. There is no need for anything more powerful as those steel targets will never know the difference.

When building ammunition,,, You need to first consider what you are going to shoot with that ammo.

No load is going to work for everything, and I think we can all agree with that.

That said, a 1 oz slug traveling at 1200 fps will take down just about anything in N/A, so we are not talking cream puff fodder here either. Recoil in all my guns is birdshot level so I can shoot these easily and so can anyone else. But I wouldn't hesitate to use these to shoot a charging black bear as I know there is plenty of power there to deal with the threat. IE: Ammo fits the intended uses.

I found out the hard way that shooting a Tactical Shotgun (or any other shotgun for that matter) requires a good hold with your cheek weld firmly on the gun or you will get smacked in the chops everytime you pull the trigger,,, even with very light loads. So a little instruction might be in order if you are getting beat up.

I just went to a 4 day Shotgun Class at Front sight (you might have read my thread on it?) and returned with no marks whatsoever after nearly 500 rounds fired. 300 birdshot 150 buckshot and 50 slugs. All the buckshot and slugs were Federal Low Recoil running <1300 fps and I even snuck in a few of my Lee Slugs loaded in the Federal Blue Hulls. All slug shots in the class were either 35 or 50 yards and the accuracy from my A5 Buck Special barrel was more than good enough to hit the steel targets everytime as long as I actually made the shot. IE: if I missed, it was my fault, and not the equipment.

So my point here is find something that works for your intended use and do that. Endless searching for that perfect load is pointless.

Load some ammo and go shoot something!

Happy Thanksgiving

Randy

[BJK]

Thanks Randy. No I'm not getting beat up from bad form. There was a time when I could shoot slugs and muzzleloaders all day. But I'm older now and I no longer enjoy elephant gun levels of recoil (yes, those too). As you wrote, it's just not needed.

I hope you're having a good Thanksgiving Day also.

[BJK]

OK, so as requested here are the results of shooting the junk loads. That should be a hint.

I changed the sight on the shotgun so had to sight in again with Aguila 1 3/4" slugs; just at 25 yards, all I wanted to do was get on paper. Then I fired the homemade loads. I didn't bother setting up the chrono', I figured I could load more if they were promising and save time if they weren't. I have no idea what the pattern was at 25 yards . So I moved the target to approx' 15 yards and got a 4" group. Not exactly what I had in mind. So I'm going to drop back and start over.

In examining the wads most were missing multiple petals. If that was happening in the jump from the hull to the forcing cone how could the projectile possibly have any accuracy? The best things I can say about these loads is that they were reduced recoil and they made noise. Oh, and I know what doesn't work first hand. One load out of millions of potential loads that I know doesn't work. I think I'll shorten the learning curve by purchasing the BP load data and start over.

I'd really like to be able to buy the Aguila slugs and wads as components. They work in the short shells.

[Kosh75287]

I hope that makes sense... I tend to have a habit of over explaining... and rambling... wait, what was I saying?
Longbow

LOL! Longbow, I think I may have SEEN you at one of those "Rambling Anonymous" meetings! Darned WORDY affairs, have you noticed? EVERYone seems to want to talk forever, and then the next thing you know... Ooops, there I go, again...

[BJK]

I did find one of the spent "wads" that Aguila uses. Previously I explained it's more of a key and IMO a brilliant design. No matter what the jump is to the forcing cone things stay lined up, nothing gets torn off, and instead of counting on the slug to do anything it just goes along for the ride and the "wad" does everything. The wad I found appears to be able to be reloaded. By eye there is very little damage to it.

The same sort of pusher wad could be made for the Lee 7/8oz slugs, but of course the cost of the mould would never even be recouped since the demand would be so low. But with such a wad the "drive key" could be removed from the slug and the hollow base would be filled with the wad itself, same as with the Aguila slug.

I'm not opposed to a round ball either. I'll spend some time looking at what Longbow has done in that direction.

It's been years since I did any muzzleloading, but I seem to remember a sort of sabot made for round balls. If it's profitable to make a mold for that niche use would it be less profitable to make such an item for a round ball for a shotgun? Just pondering.

[longbow]

If you are thinking round ball there are a few ways to make it work well:

- naked 0.735" RB on a wad column (there are other "bore" mould sizes available but 0.735" is a Lyman standard, Mihec makes a 0.732" RB mould). 0.735" is oversize but swages to bore size pretty easy when fired.
- 0.678" RB in shotcup ~ fit can be quite good depending on shotcup petal thickness but I find it a bit loose in standard Winchester shotcups
- 0.662" cloth patched into a standard wad already in a hull. By cloth patching you can set the fit by varying thickness of cloth. 0.662" RB's also fit some steel shot wads quite well.
- in between sizes like 0.690" and 0.715" using donut wads or cutting the petals down on a standard wad. These are also standard Lyman mould sizes. 0.690" is a size I have not had success with though many others seem to find it works for them. A donut wad, cut down shotcup, gas seal inverted under the ball or a variety of other methods to center the ball should work and apparently do for some (not me). 0.690" RB's do fit into some thin petal shotcups but again it didn't work for me. Lee also makes an inexpensive 0.690" RB mould.

My best round ball accuracy came with 0.662" cloth patched into standard shotcups and with 0.735" RB naked over hard card wad column with plastic gas seal over powder. Good loads from either run 3" to 4" consistently at out to at least 50 yards. Beyond 70 or maybe 75 yards groups start to open up exponentially giving inconsistent and generally large groups at 100 yards.

When using a round ball in standard wad it is best to put at least one 1/8" nitro card wad underneath the ball to prevent the wad from trying to wrap around the spherical surface.

You can also get creative with hot melt glue or possibly other adhesives for not just filling hollow bases of slugs but to add an extended "wad" like a Brenneke. I generally use hot melt glue.

I started out trying to make a form fit extended wad for round balls similar to what you are talking about but attached like a Brenneke. My method:

- bored out some aluminum tube to accept a 0.690" RB at one end then bored the other end to allow a two wrap paper tube with OD at bore diameter
- roll a 2 wrap paper tube and insert in one end
- drill a 0.690" RB and install short wood screw sticking out of the "bottom"
- insert the RB in the other end with screw "down"
- flip over with paper wrap end up then fill with hot melt glue
- when cool enough push out round ball with bonded paper patched extended wad
- load and shoot

That worked but not as well as I would have liked. Glue fill was somewhat inconsistent and uneven up to ball equator. Bases varied some due to inconsistent fill too but overfilling then inverting on greased cold steel plate gave a nice flat base. The paper wrap is necessary for bore diameter glue wad to keep glue off the bore.

My goal here was to try to create a homemade AQ slug which has shot very well for me. It worked but not well enough. I did the same for home made flat based and hollow bases slugs. That worked better but still not good enough.

I've done the same using Lee slugs and smaller diameter pipe but went to plastic pipe and greased the inside for release. The slugs go into shotcups so no glue touches the bore anyway. Tumble in baby powder so they don't stick to wads. This also worked fairly well but not good enough to justify the effort.

Do a search for BigMrTong. He 3D printed hollow base inserts for Lee slugs and got some pretty good results from them. Much less effort than what I did and likely more consistent as well since 3D printed wads will be pretty much identical.

If you are thinking different slugs, many have had quite good success with the Lyman sabot slug in standard wads.

Aaaahhhhh... I digress again. Sorry, I tend to ramble. Once I get going momentum just keeps me going.

Lots of options!

Longbow

[Mr_Sheesh]

BJK - For custom wads, see if you can get someone to 3d print you a few samples, then once you have the design right, look for a local model railrod club; they usually have someone who can make injection molds for CHEAP, if that person's 2A-friendly then you can get a mold & maybe a sample run for pretty reasonable. Hundreds not thousands. I was looking at connector manufacture, myself, for a couple tiny palmtop computers I & a few others use, found that resource.

If I had a printer working I'd help, can make you a model maybe that someone else could print?

[longbow]

BigMrTong's threads:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Lee-Slug-Load
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...stom-Slug-Wads

These are still Lee slugs and need a shotcup so fit is still an issue.

A different slug and another option that takes care of bore fit:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...gun-Wads/page4

Post #76 is probably the best place to start.

Longbow

[BJK]

Interesting stuff. Yes, that slug in the sabot is similar to what I had in mind. Anything inside a sabot would work; a slug or a round ball, but as I read in the thread, not in 2 pieces but in 3 or 4. With a round ball there would be room enough to print a "hollow point" in the sabot to get instant separation. But I know nothing about 3D printing and the resins used. So many ways to go with a sabot.

Maybe Mr Sheesh can help? I have no idea where to get them printed though.

[Mr_Sheesh]

There are a number of places where you can get things printed, also a lot of very kind members here who might help. Shapeways might be a possibility but they may be costlier than others; If you upload it to Thingiverse and look there, there are folks present who can print it using at least a filament (FDM) printer, possibly a resin printer. A friend just told me that he plans to buy a professional grade 3d printer, I might be able toget time on that,but unsure when he'll get it. IF you put a design up on Thingiverse I wouldn't name it something like "Sabot" though, maybe something like "Centering adapter" or the like, Thingiverse can be 2a unfriendly at times, there are other 3d CAD file library sites though.

Question, would an FDM printed sabot work well enough for a smoothbore, or is a resin printed part absolutely necessary?

If you FDM printed it in ABS and then acetone vapor treated it, that would smooth the print out a lot; Might be quite sufficient for slugs?

A rifled 12GA might need more accuracy, or might not. Cheaper / easier to try a few in ABS using FDM, maybe, and see what results you get, than to start off assuming resin printing is needed? A thought. Might be able to get someone with a lathe or mill to make a few, also, from ABS rod, and then coping saw them into even pieces, for testing?

Also, to make a model to 3d print, accurate measurements of the slug are needed.

[BJK]

Question, would an FDM printed sabot work well enough for a smoothbore, or is a resin printed part absolutely necessary?

I have no idea what you mean, I really know nothing about 3D printing and this isn't the place to get me up to speed. I worked in the plastics industry decades ago and when I write "resin" I mean plastic. I need to do my homework to get up to speed. But all in due time.

Right now I have info coming in from BP and I'm waiting on that. I anticipate so many more simple things I need to try before I act on any of my brainstorming. My biggest problem is that I have far too many irons in the fire, the shotgun loads are just one that I'm working on. Right now I'll work on something that promises a faster return while I cogitate on the shotgun and lick my wounds.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

It good to play it safe, after all we are playing with fire.

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Mr_Sheesh]

FDM = Filament deposition i.e. hot end melting filament, if that was the source of the confusion?

[longbow]

I have a friend attempting to 3D print some rocket fin tailwad for me right now. Not going too well so far. The tailwad are coming out oval! Not sure if it is a plastic shrinkage issue or printer problem on one axis. Thinking the latter. Hopefully it gets sorted out shortly.

Longbow

[Mr_Sheesh]

Mention "calibration" to them, that's where you fix the set up the printer's adjustment numbers so when you print a cube, it comes out an actual cube, instead of a brick

[longbow]

Good info! I have no knowledge of the 3D printer or its set up requirements.

I have made a hybrid 3D model using BigMrTong's Lee rocket fin idea and Cap'n Morgan's round ball attached wad idea. First 3D printed prototypes are to suit 0.690" RB and looked but when I checked dimensions they were 0.750" across one pair of fins and 0.710" across the other pair of fins! 0.040" out of round is a hair too much!

My friend is working to correct that so hopefully he's successful. Then I can get some testing done. If it works out I'll post the 3D files.

Longbow