Mixing glass or shrapnel in with alloy?

[imashooter2]

Appreciate the link. I didn't see any gel blocks but admittedly I didn't read beyond the pics either. I see petals for sure which is definitely new to me. But I don't see anything pointy/sharp that would rip quite like copper jacketing.

Thanks!

I’ve never seen any study that suggests that hollow point jackets provide enhanced wounding.

I’ve seen advertising copy bragging about high rpm buzz saws, but those are not scientific studies and on the face of it ignore that the high rpm buzz saw will only make 1 turn every foot or so.

[Texas by God]

A bit of Ricin and a bit of JB Weld in the hp cavity, gosh....

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[charlie b]

If you want a 'shrapnel' round it was called a MagSafe or Glaser. Shotgun shot in a copper cup. IIRC they were developed for Air Marshals to prevent penetrating an aircraft cabin. They have evolved over the years. Depending on type and caliber they have different shot sizes.

Father-in-law and I worked on a cast hollow point fired at 800fps that would reliably expand after penetrating a layer of denim and wool. Surprise it was identical to the hollow point cavity in Winchester Silvertips.

Now days there are a bunch of commercial bullets that do the job better in all the various scenarios so I don't waste my time casting hollow points.

FWIW, there is data in here on .38 158gn HPSWC lead bullets.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...c-tests/#45ACP

[35remington]

The necessity of doing so set aside, it would not stay in the nose of the bullet. Hot lead alloy dropped into a hot mould (cold moulds do not produce usable bullets) is introduced into a mould as a heavy liquid at relatively high flow speed whether inserted with a dipper or a bottom pour pot. The lead does not solidify immediately....again, if it did, the bullet would not be usable.

The glass would have as much chance of staying in place under heavy fast liquid flow as toilet paper in a flushing toilet. As in none whatsoever. Won’t work. Since it won’t work, the need and effectiveness question is moot.

[emt1581]

The necessity of doing so set aside, it would not stay in the nose of the bullet. Hot lead alloy dropped into a hot mould (cold moulds do not produce usable bullets) is introduced into a mould as a heavy liquid at relatively high flow speed whether inserted with a dipper or a bottom pour pot. The lead does not solidify immediately....again, if it did, the bullet would not be usable.

The glass would have as much chance of staying in place under heavy fast liquid flow as toilet paper in a flushing toilet. As in none whatsoever. Won’t work. Since it won’t work, the need and effectiveness question is moot.

No desire to try it, but what about pinning the glass/metal down at the bottom (nose) with a small wire-like piece with a tiny circle/basket....then pour the lead in on top of it....then one it hardens, just clip the wire. Not sure if something like that would screw up balance of the bullet in flight though. Just an idea to force whatever additional payload to stay put.

[35remington]

No way to secure anything without preventing the mould from closing and letting the lead flow out. Anything unsecured will also move under the lead Niagara Falls incoming.

Sorry, but the concept isn’t viable.

[emt1581]

No way to secure anything without preventing the mould from closing and letting the lead flow out. Anything unsecured will also move under the lead Niagara Falls incoming.

Sorry, but the concept isn’t viable.

Preventing the mold from closing? I don't follow you. Correct me where I'm mistaken... Hold the mold closed in one hand, sprinkle in whatever, follow that with a circular section of wire or something like that that will rest on the "sprinkles" (maybe a third hand holds the wire to prevent it from be up-ended like a straw in a drink), then pour the lead in. Where's the flaw in that plan to make it not viable?

[35remington]

Because the wire also moves. It is light compared to very heavy lead. The toilet paper analogy applies.

I presume you are not a bullet caster nor have you seen it done. How would you cut the sprue? Where would this wire tail protrude?

It would be helpful to review the procedures inherent to casting bullets. Then you would see the problems that arise with your idea(s) and would have no further questions about what would be very apparently impracticable.

[emt1581]

Because the wire also moves. It is light compared to very heavy lead. The toilet paper analogy applies.

I presume you are not a bullet caster nor have you seen it done. How would you cut the sprue? Where would this wire tail protrude?

It would be helpful to review the procedures inherent to casting bullets. Then you would see the problems that arise with your idea(s) and would have no further questions about what would be very apparently impracticable.

I just cast a couple hundred 10mm and 308win bullets yesterday. So yes, I am a caster. Cut the sprue with the plate AFTER nipping the wire off. The wire tail would come out of the sprue hole where the lead gets poured into. I'm not good with digital drawings but I could draw it on a post-it and post a pic. Makes perfect sense in my mind. Well, except for the third hand. That seems clumsy and potentially dangerous.

[Winger Ed.]

Cut the sprue with the plate AFTER nipping the wire off. .

I don't think ya could cut the wire off short enough inside the solidified sprue for the plate to swing over and clear it.
The first time the sprue plate hit the wire, it would ruin the cutting edge of its hole.

[35remington]

Holding the wire in place is a failing. Even if you could do it by some miracle, you now have a bullet with a chunk of wire in it. Foreign objects in moulds that slosh around in unpredictable ways make unbalanced bullets.

Not good!

If you nip the wire off, the sprue plate still has to cut the remaining wire you did not nip. Sprue plates can’t cut wire....just lead. No go.

You are trying really, really hard to pursue a non viable idea. Not worth your time or anyone else’s. Realistic to presume that it is a non viable idea or it else would have already been done. It isn’t, and it hasn’t.

[emt1581]

I don't think ya could cut the wire off short enough inside the solidified sprue for the plate to swing over and clear it.
The first time the sprue plate hit the wire, it would ruin the cutting edge of its hole.

I thought the same after I posted it. Toothpick, 3d printing filament, etc. Maybe something that'll destroy itself as the lead hardens but still do the job of providing structure/integrity to hold the sprinkles in place. At this point I really don't care about it, just stretching my brain a bit thinking about the potential of the idea.

EDIT: Ok, now I'm getting a little carried away with this one...but what about an electro/magnet to pull the metal in place at the bottom. No clue what magnet would withstand the heat but if the magnet was on the surface under the pot, mold rests on top of that (because LEE aluminum isn't magnetic....then again Lyman steel molds are)... Again, just my mind getting carried away.

[35remington]

At this point the problems with the idea should be piling up in your head to a greater extent than anything else.

Why don’t you fiddle around with cast hollowpoints and let this one go?

Introducing something that is light and solid to hold something light and powdery in place, all of which is likely to shift anyway under the somewhat irresistible force of very heavy hot liquid flow in a tiny confined area while maintaining bullet balance is not worth the effort because you can’t get it done in any worthwhile sense.

Why not worry about making an accurate load and practice a lot? The real value in a bullet is shooting it straight. With a handgun that is the real issue.

Besides, they sell shiny new Gold Dots for you to handload or HST’s to buy every day.

[emt1581]

At this point the problems with the idea should be piling up in your head to a greater extent than anything else.

Why don’t you fiddle around with cast hollowpoints and let this one go?

Introducing something that is light and solid to hold something light and powdery in place, all of which is likely to shift anyway under the somewhat irresistible force of very heavy hot liquid flow in a tiny confined area while maintaining bullet balance is not worth the effort because you can’t get it done in any worthwhile sense.

Why not worry about making an accurate load and practice a lot? The real value in a bullet is shooting it straight. With a handgun that is the real issue.

Besides, they sell shiny new Gold Dots for you to handload or HST’s to buy every day.

I've come close to buying the Lyman HP mold for 9mm a few times. But the last time I was going to pull the trigger, some pics were shared in a thread of how the bullets don't flower/expand as we've seen linked to here...but the gel/wound channels I saw made those Gold Dots you speak of seem like a night and day difference. That's why I've been asking to see gel for the claims made in here.

Speaking of Gold Dots, I do need to pick up a few boxes and I don't expect I'll find any in stock at this particular point in time. But stranger things have happened.

[35remington]

The need for such a bullet is so low it is nonexistent. It will not revolutionize handgun performance even if you could make such a thing.

No need to reinvent the wheel, or try to improve something that already has well defined limits in terms of impact performance. Everything you envision as been accomplished in some way before and has largely been rejected as undesirable to correct bullet performance. The Glaser was a dead end, just as a frangible bullet will be that penetrates poorly. Why try to (re)create that which is already known to be inadequate and undesirable by very difficult to impossible means?

I do understand this may be just thinking out loud, so to speak, but really.....

[35remington]

I picked up, amazingly, some Critical Duty when I happened to be in Cabela’s at just the right time a week ago. They lasted all of thirty minutes while I was in the store. Those are likely better than anything you can make in terms of a proposed frangible powdered unbalanced cast lead bullet that has poor accuracy and penetration.

[M-Tecs]

A pure lead or pure lead tin alloy has a very long and distinguished prove track record of extremely reliable expansion. Adding a jacket allows for increase velocity and increase RPM threshold. The jacket does not increase expansion. It is the exact opposite. The jacket can be used to decrease and control expansion. Before jacketed bullets became the standard hunting bullets were lead and tin. After jacketed bullets became the mainstay cast bullets mostly were relegated to cost effective practice loads or handgun competition with very little concern for expansion. The cheapest alloys that didn't lead and gave adequate accuracy is what was used. Can you say wheel weights? These alloys were, are and always have been lacking for expansion.

To the OP why do you believe the jacketed bullet expands better? Hint at the same velocity a jacketed bullet of equal design with a pure lead core will expand less than the same design out of pure lead without a jacket. Pure lead without a jacket will not withstand the same RPM or muzzle velocity as a jacket unless it's paper patched, polycoated or powder coated. They will also require a slower twist at high velocities.

As to glass in a bullet usage glass is to light and fragile to have any practical bullet application.

Hollow point cast bullets don't compare to their jacketed cousins in defensive performance.

At normal or lower handgun velocity the is simply not true if expansion and or penetration is the criteria. Jacketed bullets offer many advantages over lead but expansion is not one of them. Lack or leading, better accuracy in ill fitting bores and throat's, less critical bullet to case fit, withstanding higher rifle velocities and higher RPM limits are a few of the advantages.

To the OP since you made the above statement please tell us what testing or actual game killing experience you have to back up your statement? What calibers, velocities and alloys did you use for your test of actual game taking? Without a good baseline how do you tell if any changes are a benefit?

[rbuck351]

If you really want to do this, cast or drill a large HP in your boolit, then fill the HP with what ever you want and top off with a bit of glue. Then do some testing in some different mediums and compare it to the same boolit without the HP loaded backwards.

[35remington]

There has been a fair amount of experimentation here in that regard. Easier concept to implement all around.

[GregLaROCHE]

One night I drilled out the noses of some 500 grain .45/70 slugs and installed primers. At the time, drinking beer and wine, it seemed like an interesting thing to do. The next morning, I thought about it and decided to throw them away. My main fear was that they may go off before exiting the muzzle. Has anyone thought about or even tried that?