Mixing glass or shrapnel in with alloy?

[M-Tecs]

One night I drilled out the noses of some 500 grain .45/70 slugs and installed primers. At the time, drinking beer and wine, it seemed like an interesting thing to do. The next morning, I thought about it and decided to throw them away. My main fear was that they may go off before exiting the muzzle. Has anyone thought about or even tried that?

Explosive .22 caliber ammunition was used in the assassination attempt on President Reagan in 1981. It had the power of a small firecracker. Until you get to military grade high explosives it's not effective.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...y-kera-claims/

[Ledhead]

It is my opinion based apon my research and my personal experiences that the "sharp" pedals or ridges on a jacketed bullet only
measurably increases tissue damage towards the end of the wound channel, after the round streamlines in the gel block. This is due to the temporary stretch cavity forming around the projectile as it penetrates. I'm not convinced this phenomenon directly occurs in living tissue based apon wound channels I find in deer.

When inspecting wound channels in deer I've found the flatter the expanded portion is and the greater the total surface area the greater the damage created by the bullet. This means that a bullet that creates multiple separate pedals will cause less internal damage vs a standard cast boolit that creates a flat top mushroom.

Expansion in cast without fragmentation takes a large effort and lots of testing. Once you achieve the proper alloy with the proper velocity you get reliable expantion. All the wile with near 100% weight retention for deep penetration, especially in hunting caliber velocity. ~1400 fps range

[emt1581]

A pure lead or pure lead tin alloy has a very long and distinguished prove track record of extremely reliable expansion. Adding a jacket allows for increase velocity and increase RPM threshold. The jacket does not increase expansion. It is the exact opposite. The jacket can be used to decrease and control expansion. Before jacketed bullets became the standard hunting bullets were lead and tin. After jacketed bullets became the mainstay cast bullets mostly were relegated to cost effective practice loads or handgun competition with very little concern for expansion. The cheapest alloys that didn't lead and gave adequate accuracy is what was used. Can you say wheel weights? These alloys were, are and always have been lacking for expansion.

To the OP why do you believe the jacketed bullet expands better? Hint at the same velocity a jacketed bullet of equal design with a pure lead core will expand less than the same design out of pure lead without a jacket. Pure lead without a jacket will not withstand the same RPM or muzzle velocity as a jacket unless it's paper patched, polycoated or powder coated. They will also require a slower twist at high velocities.

As to glass in a bullet usage glass is to light and fragile to have any practical bullet application.

At normal or lower handgun velocity the is simply not true if expansion and or penetration is the criteria. Jacketed bullets offer many advantages over lead but expansion is not one of them. Lack or leading, better accuracy in ill fitting bores and throat's, less critical bullet to case fit, withstanding higher rifle velocities and higher RPM limits are a few of the advantages.

To the OP since you made the above statement please tell us what testing or actual game killing experience you have to back up your statement? What calibers, velocities and alloys did you use for your test of actual game taking? Without a good baseline how do you tell if any changes are a benefit?

As to why I believe jacketed expands better......that actually came from pics/data someone shared in a thread over on ARF.com last year when I discussed shopping for a cast HP 9mm mold over there. Kinda crapped on the idea but through data not just their opinion. Admittedly, that and some light digging afterward was what I based by understanding on. Now another thread what linked to earlier here. But I did not see a mold company/model listed even though the expansion was quite impressive. While the Lyman is the cheapest mold I've seen, I would certainly be open to suggestions on molds that are known to produce excellent expanding 9mm (.356?) bullets that are actually available for purchase (i.e. still being made and not OOS due to the panic or pandemic).... and while I already have a few hundred pounds of ingots made I'd also welcome specific suggestion on alloy mixtures to produce said results/expansion.

Hunting...only ever took small game with a .22lr. Rabbits and goundhogs. As mentioned above, my experience was not first hand, but rather from searching around online over the years and most recently that thread on the other forum I referenced.

Appreciate the info you shared.

Did want to include something else that is pure observation just to chew on a bit here... When mining lead at the range, I wear nitrile gloves (just so I can rip them off and answer my phone/etc. if needed). I've never had a cast lead bullet tear through them when digging around. However, the copper jacketed ones are sharp little ********!! Not only will they tear through the glove but I've also received small nicks/cuts from them.

[emt1581]

Explosive .22 caliber ammunition was used in the assassination attempt on President Reagan in 1981. It had the power of a small firecracker. Until you get to military grade high explosives it's not effective.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...y-kera-claims/

Impressive. Did not know that. Your title is well deserved.

[emt1581]

If you really want to do this, cast or drill a large HP in your boolit, then fill the HP with what ever you want and top off with a bit of glue. Then do some testing in some different mediums and compare it to the same boolit without the HP loaded backwards.

I've given that thought sporadically over the years. Never tried it though. Would be fun to test out at the range and certainly easy enough with a vise/press.

[emt1581]

There has been a fair amount of experimentation here in that regard. Easier concept to implement all around.

Need to do some digging on that one to better educate myself on results and molds. As I said in my other post today, I'm open to suggestions on 9mm HP molds (err...I'll start with one) to try to play around with different alloy and powders.

Thanks

[Ledhead]

Need to do some digging on that one to better educate myself on results and molds. As I said in my other post today, I'm open to suggestions on 9mm HP molds (err...I'll start with one) to try to play around with different alloy and powders.

Thanks

Look into NOE RG molds, that's what I have for my 44 and I love that thing. As far as alloys goes you're gonna need to leave out the antimony and cast pure lead and tin to best avoid fragmentation. Your target ammo can be whatever you have laying around, especially if you powder coat, but save the pure and tin mix for special purposes like defense or hunting.

[emt1581]

Look into NOE RG molds, that's what I have for my 44 and I love that thing. As far as alloys goes you're gonna need to leave out the antimony and cast pure lead and tin to best avoid fragmentation. Your target ammo can be whatever you have laying around, especially if you powder coat, but save the pure and tin mix for special purposes like defense or hunting.

Thanks for the info!! I'm going to be buying NOE's gas checked .50bmg mold so I can look at their "RG" mold for 9mm. Lead and tin is what I have in all my ingots now. Any particular ratio you'd suggest and maybe how you test for hardness when looking at the alloy itself (prior to casting bullets)?

Thanks

[charlie b]

If serious about this you will need to know your alloy hardness so a tester will be necessary. The alloy you want will depend on the terminal velocities of your bullets. Then you will need some medium to test with. It doesn't have to be ballistic gelatin, especially since you will need a lot of it for all the bullets you will shoot. Soaked newsprint or phone books work for initial tests. When you get a design that works in that medium then you can get a large roast, bones, etc to test it on. And a layer of leather, denim, wool or whatever else you will expect from the type of engagements you envision.

[emt1581]

If serious about this you will need to know your alloy hardness so a tester will be necessary. The alloy you want will depend on the terminal velocities of your bullets. Then you will need some medium to test with. It doesn't have to be ballistic gelatin, especially since you will need a lot of it for all the bullets you will shoot. Soaked newsprint or phone books work for initial tests. When you get a design that works in that medium then you can get a large roast, bones, etc to test it on. And a layer of leather, denim, wool or whatever else you will expect from the type of engagements you envision.

Hmm, never considered doing any serious testing but, for political/legal reasons, might be useful and important to be able to do in the future....if/when one can't just go online and stroll into a store and buy defense ammo.

I usually buy 5-6 turkeys when they are cheap this time of year (already have 5). I could buy a small one for a few bucks and shoot that. lol In all seriousness though, not sure of where I'd even find phone books or other medium. Maybe save up and bundle junk mail but that'd be inconsistent with the thickness of stock of everything varying.

So I need mold(s), alloy ideas, medium to test in before moving on to meat/bone (groundhogs will volunteer in the spring which would be free).

[Ledhead]

Thanks for the info!! I'm going to be buying NOE's gas checked .50bmg mold so I can look at their "RG" mold for 9mm. Lead and tin is what I have in all my ingots now. Any particular ratio you'd suggest and maybe how you test for hardness when looking at the alloy itself (prior to casting bullets)?

Thanks

For 9mm velocities I'd likely start somewhere around 30-1 lead/tin and go from there. I do the majority of my testing in soaked phone books and find that to be a pretty accurate representation of penetration and wound channels in deer. I've settled on basically 20-1 +1% antimony in my .44. It took years of testing to finally get it figured out. (only a few weeks with the help of the good folks here) Now I consistently get the most beautiful mushrooms and near 100% weight retention.

[emt1581]

For 9mm velocities I'd likely start somewhere around 30-1 lead/tin and go from there. I do the majority of my testing in soaked phone books and find that to be a pretty accurate representation of penetration and wound channels in deer. I've settled on basically 20-1 +1% antimony in my .44. It took years of testing to finally get it figured out. (only a few weeks with the help of the good folks here) Now I consistently get the most beautiful mushrooms and near 100% weight retention.

Just curious where you are getting phone books and enough of them to do testing? In decades past, I used to see boxes of them that no one wanted at different places I worked. Haven't seen one of any size in years.

Thanks

[Goofy]

Most everything you might want to know about alloys and such.

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Little need to guess about hardness, Lee makes an inexpensive and functional hardness tester.

[pmer]

Here's some 45 acp shot into wet paper. Cast soft and powder coated

[1hole]

I once knew an old machinist who reloaded and salt water fished. He fished just off the Jetty at the mouth of the St. John's river in Mayport, Florida, and had troubles with sharks taking his fish.

Great rifle accuracy wasn't needed for close in shark shooting so he simply made a (rough) anti-shark bullet mold for his trapdoor Springfield. He hollow pointed the bullet to accept a tight fitted .22 RF cartridge, base forward, and with room for the powder from a few crushed kitchen matches packed into the cavity; in other words, he made illegal but workable explosive bullets for a .45-70.

I saw the mold and a few of his bullets in the early 60s but, sadly, I never saw it at work. It couldn't take any deep sharks of course but witnesses said it played rough with those near the surface.

(For the info of any indignant BATF men who see this post, I knew that man in the early 60s and he died in the late 60s. I don't remember his name now so I can't even help you dig him up for a trial and burning at the stake.)

[emt1581]

I once knew an old machinist who reloaded and salt water fished. He fished just off the Jetty at the mouth of the St. John's river in Mayport, Florida, and had troubles with sharks taking his fish.

Great rifle accuracy wasn't needed for close in shark shooting so he simply made a (rough) anti-shark bullet mold for his trapdoor Springfield. He hollow pointed the bullet to accept a tight fitted .22 RF cartridge, base forward, and with room for the powder from a few crushed kitchen matches packed into the cavity; in other words, he made illegal but workable explosive bullets for a .45-70.

I saw the mold and a few of his bullets in the early 60s but, sadly, I never saw it at work. It couldn't take any deep sharks of course but witnesses said it played rough with those near the surface.

(For the info of any indignant BATF men who see this post, I knew that man in the early 60s and he died in the late 60s. I don't remember his name now so I can't even help you dig him up for a trial and burning at the stake.)

That's interesting. I guess at short range, something like that could get the job done. I wonder if when he took aim he said "Smile you sonofa...."

[hiram]

I read about a 45-70 HP with a shotgun primer glued into the cavity. Solid side facing forward. Never did it----I swear. This is illegal because it would be considered an explosive device.

[emt1581]

I read about a 45-70 HP with a shotgun primer glued into the cavity. Solid side facing forward. Never did it----I swear. This is illegal because it would be considered an explosive device.

Do you mean Destructive Device? If so, you could do it (so long as your state said so), but you'd have to pay the $200 extortion fee....I mean tax and then engrave the casing with a serial number and your info.

While the mere discussion is likely to cause a sandy vag for some here, I'd be curious to know what such a thing actually does...the primer in the HP. Just not sure if the force would be enough to do anything of if it'd be like taping a firecracker to a cannon ball...little pop but no real enhancement in performance.

[USSR]

Thanks for the info!! I'm going to be buying NOE's gas checked .50bmg mold so I can look at their "RG" mold for 9mm. Lead and tin is what I have in all my ingots now. Any particular ratio you'd suggest and maybe how you test for hardness when looking at the alloy itself (prior to casting bullets)?

Thanks

Some info regarding the pic below that I previously posted. The bullet in the middle and on the right were shot out of my snubbie using my version of the .38 Special +P FBI load. The velocity of the middle bullet was 845fps, and the bullet on the right was 940fps. They were fired into water-soaked newsprint, which is a good and convenient medium for the layman. The alloy in both cases was 97.0Pb/2.5Sn/0.5Sb. Since your 9mm HP's would be at slightly greater velocity, I would try 96.0Pb/3.0Sn/1.0Sb. A couple of things to keep in mind with cast hollowpoints. It is important to keep your tin content high and your antimony content low if you want good expansion, and have a mold that casts heavy for caliber bullets if you want good penetration, which you do.

Don

[charlie b]

We did our testing back in the 80's so there were plenty of news papers and phone books.

You might be able to get phone books if your area still gets them delivered at the beginning of the year. The local post office will have a large bin to deposit the old ones. If you ask they will let you take as many as you want. One asked me to sign a recycling form, ie, I promised to turn them into a recycling center when I was done with them. Yes, we did cut out the lead path and recycle the rest.

I would never consider using a cast hollow point bullet on anything unless I tested it to my satisfaction.