New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[uscra112]

Changing the mass distribution along the barrel would move the primary node. That's what a "tuner" does. Damping cannot. Basic physics.

[Forrest r]

@ Forrest r... That's a very interesting article, thanks for such a lengthy discussion, I'm sure more than just myself will benefit.

You say... (If the dead spot isn't near the center of the bbl (naturally) or it can't be moved that rifle will never shoot well. )

Question... In center-fire, does this mean that you can't ladder test this rifle and find a node, regardless of velocity...just find a node that'll shoot well?

No still do the ladder tests. The further the node is from the center of the bbl, the more "whip" that bbl will have.
More whip ='s:
The bbl is more sensitive to velocity
Harder to find accuracy nodes
Smaller window of es for those accuracy nodes

A couple years back I ordered a 30" 308w bbl (original bbl was 25") for a late 60's/early 70's canadian shooting team target rifle (cil 950T). That rifle has a savage receiver. Typically long 308w bbl's are finicky, they have a lot of bbl whip. When I installed that bbl I torqued it down testing/torqueing until the node was in the center of the bbl. That node can be further manipulated further forward with pressure points in the stock.

[OS OK]

Those links are really interesting, I like seeing things explained like that...but...I don't think that I want to get started chasing accuracy with a barrel tuner.
That makes me think that I'd need pert-near a 'lead sled' and keep the chrony recording every shot & use the most expensive ammo to make the observations on the POI and determine the reason they hit like they did and what I need to do about it. That makes a science project out of what should have been an enjoyable day behind the rifle.

I am not saying that that kind of work is not needed, just I ain't the guy to do it.

The mathematical computations, I think...are more for tickling the intricate minds of engineer types than an ole'Fat RedNeck like me...I am not convinced that studying what happens in an 'X-Y-Z' axis world would be useful for anything but basic explanations of this principal. I think there are many variables that determine the POI since we are shooting and relying on the trigger man as much or more than we rely on the platform to get the job done.

At the end of the day, I don't want a best target from all the rests & sand bags & high powered scopes...I just want to milk the best performance I can from rifle, affordable ammo and the dummy behind the trigger.

Please don't think that I don't appreciate each and everyone's input to this thread...all the technical information is very interesting & I appreciate having the links, I appreciate the technical study and realize that we couldn't get the results we get today if it wasn't for that work...I'm just the old'Guy in the backyard trying to have a good time with a new to me 'peep & globe'.

[tazman]

At last!!!
A person with a practical outlook on shooting!
I want one hole groups, but I don't want to change everything on the rifle to do it.
I watched a video on YouTube yesterday about a how to make a CZ455 into a really great rifle. When he was done, the only parts left from the original rifle were the bolt and receiver. Even those parts had been modified slightly. Basically, he custom built a gun.
Why spend $500-$800 for rifle when you are only going to use a couple of the parts?
If I am going to spend that much money on a rifle and then modify it, I will just buy a custom such as a Cooper, Anshutz, or a Vudoo.
Reminds me of the Ruger 10-22 people who continually modify those rifles.

I understand the need for specialty items in unlimited styles but not for what I want to do. Factory class benchrest competition is for unmodified factory rifles that cost no more than $999.
I should be able to get a competitive rifle for less than that. And I have.

[OS OK]

I remember the times I watched my Mom and Dad playing with 'her' little single shot .22. Prolly 1955 or so and I was a shaver, I think my head was about elbow high then...that's the perspective I have from the picture in my old grey matter today...

They used to stick a kitchen match in the pine tree bark and stand back 10 yards or so and try to light the match as they stood and shot...not as they propped the rifle on an adjustable front rest and nestled it into a rear stock bag and of course they use open sights. They had a real good time and it left me with the impression for life...that 'skill' is prolly the most important thing.

I guess that has driven me to try to do the best I can with what I have...I have never been part of a shooting club or enter competitions, just never ran with that crowd or prolly I would have had further influences that would'a took me on a different path in my shooting hobby.

If I can get one tight group out of 3 or 6 bulls here in the backyard...I am estatic at the end of the day and I am compelled to try the same thing over and over again with hopes that I might do it twice in 3 or 6 target bulls. That's what drives me...that's my 'practical outlook on shooting'.

*That's not saying that I wouldn't have a great time shooting the 'best of the best', I just haven't had the opportunity.

[303Guy]

Yup, casual shooting fun.

You make me think of an outing once on a farm. We had randomly set up beer cans on a mound some 50 or more yds away. My niece decided it was more fun to shoot the beer cans on the bottom through the hole on top. The rest of us were trying to keep up with her skills. She was also shooting them on the rims to make them jump. OK, she was shooting prone and with a scope but still, that's pretty challenging shooting. I did manage to equal her though I am proud to say.


Then again, I'm thinking it would be fun to play around with my Voere. It has a scope so shooter error would be controllable or at least detectable. My objective would be to get it to shoot to POI with a variety of ammo. It has a thin but shortened barrel so it could be quite challenging. Not having a private range at my home makes it a bit difficult but I'm not dependant on that one rifle so it doesn't matter if it stretches over many moons. As long as I am having fun.

My challenge for now is to shoot with open sights and get the aperture sight mounted and operational. It will be on its way soon I hope.

[OS OK]

303Guy...>My challenge for now is to shoot with open sights and get the aperture sight mounted and operational. It will be on its way soon I hope.)

I hope that you'll document this build and share it with all of us, perhaps a running thread of your build...if you have trouble with locating a front globe enclosure, proper height and various globe inserts, I'd be proud to help you any way I can...well...so long as there are no laws about me exporting such things to New Zealand.

charlie

PS...I bet'Cha there's a half dozen of those globe assemblies in junk drawers of some of the guys here that have already commented...just mulling on it?

[OS OK]

Had some fun yesterday...didn't perform very well after having that 7/16" group last week, seems like the tighter the groups...the higher you raise the bar for yourself.
I sat in the shop with a cold beer and was patching this last target for the last go-round of the morning when I realized that I was getting roughly 50% of my groups under 1"... 1" was my first goal when I got this rifle, just to get a group within 1" & that seemed almost un-doable. I didn't have the Aguila then so I have to credit the Aguila for a lot of help.



Something I've noticed from some time back is that when I shoot the warmers & the first 5 shots...they tend to come in to the bull in a certain pattern more than not.
Notice how the first shot/cold bbl. tends to hit outside the spot somewhere from 6 to 9:00 ...
Notice the second/cold bbl. tends to jump across to the 3:00 area and the rest of the shots tend to just inch their way into the spot where the 5'th shot usually will cut the 10 ring.
((this is not cut in stone though, you can see that the first warmer round this morning & the first 5 shots of the day started out at 15/16" and didn't follow suit at all, but I do see the following pattern more than not))

Question...does anyone understand what is going on 'physically' within the barrel dynamics that would explain this?




It seems to pattern...



here...also, same day and it starts with the cooled barrel.

[303Guy]

Thank you for your kind thoughts, OS OK.

[Chill Wills]

OS OK, I am enjoying your progress and learning along the way.
You said someplace in this thread you would like to see other groups. Mine won't add much info but I shot three sample groups for your thread yesterday before my 50 shot 100yd offhand practice match. Weather was warm and dead claim! Warm that is, for the Rockies this time of year.
Below is two 5 shot groups using CCI Standard Velocity ammo (50 round paper box) from what may be a rare bad lot. I want to check the remains of the box on a chronograph. I might even weigh it. Then the third group is from the Aguila Match ammo that is shooting so well for me. My groups are nothing special but they are real groups and not special hand picked.
no cleaning or warm up shots. Just 15 in a row to form 3-5 shot groups. Check out the flyers in the second group.
Rifle = Ballard
Iron Sights = peep rear and aperture front.
50 yards shot on the 5-5/8 diameter shoot and see bull.

[OS OK]

@ Chill Wills... Thank you for posting these targets. I have had no others to look at to try to measure where I am. This peep & globe seem like such a good system, so clean to use that I expect much more from myself than what I'm doing currently. At this point I believe that the rifle and the ammo are both outdoing what I am capable of just now.
For me, at this point, I think my cheek weld is key in stopping these strung out groups like I had today.
I am single feeding this rifle so I come up off the rifle for each shot to load...I am a lefty so I would have to come off the rifle anyway to run the bolt even if I were using the little 5 round magazine. The way I see it, it is good repetition to develope my setup to each shot rather than staying on the stock.
Another point is the breath control, the problem with that is that I tend to push it to the last 1/3 of my blown out breath, that's somewhere around 10 or 12 seconds...I know it's a mistake to push it and merely learning to be more disciplined should cure that. I don't like having to come up from a shot without sending it, having to start all over, I am getting better about that and quit 2 shots today that normally I would have pushed.

I went out today, it was a warm 61º just before noon and the wind was in my face but it barely made 2mph when it did move so conditions were great for shooting.
On the other hand, I had the right attitude but just couldn't pull it off today.
Some days it just ain't happening no matter how bad I want it...

Here's the first round, it had promise for the second round but I got caught up in a phone call from a good friend on the East coast and I went cold for the second go-round. That's OK by me, I enjoy talking with my friend as much or more than shooting, anyway it was like starting cold twice but I should have been able to do like you have and just go right into it like your first five cold shots. heheee...I'll get there one day...



I can't call any fliers, it was all my doings!



On the warmer spot you see the first of the first 5 in the first set, again it started out somewhere between 6 & 9:00 and the second first shot marked (2) did the same...what was curious was that I had only that one cold first shot and then the others tried to get right into a good group, they didn't bounce over to the 3:00 side and walk in from there. It must have something to do with going today with a dirty barrel & chamber from Saturday.

I hope more of you will post your targets also...it's the next best thing to having someone here shooting with me. We are always measuring ourselves in most all we do and shooting is no different.

Thanks again Chill Wills.

[303Guy]

So how would this group with ordinary U-notch and post sight do for y'all?



OK, so I might have photoshopped it just a wee bit.

[OS OK]

303Guy... Geeez...that's terrific & with that sight system 'U' notch it's even more than terrific.

Thanks a lot, you really put me in my place this evening doing that! (hehee, kidding you know!)

"I can get groups like that all day long but the muzzle flash keeps setting the target on fire before I can get a photo of it!"

[303Guy]

This it what it really looked like. And it was only 25m.



On a serious note, it does seem strange to me that at least half the rounds went into a neat cluster (not sure if that bottom left is one boolit or two in the same hole). I fired ten shots there. I doubt that my aiming was that far out and I have noticed a similar outlier trend with another rifle with scope.

Now this rifle, the 511, is holding its groups with different ammo pretty much to the same POI and I mean from subs to HV and with different brands (but not great groups).

I took too long to post my confession! It was supposed to have been right under my photoshop.

[uscra112]

"Off Hand Rifle Shooting" http://www.issa-schuetzen.org/off-ha...-shooting.html

Harry Pope was one of the last real geniuses at the German "Schuetzen" game. Shot for the most part with the peep and globe sight setup.

Even though you're shooting off a bench, there's things to be learned here.

[OS OK]

303Guy... >"I doubt that my aiming was that far out and I have noticed a similar outlier trend with another rifle with scope."
I've noticed in the past couple weeks that now I am calling my shots at release before looking into the range scope to track them...I'm right about 60% of the time. It's not that I see anything special, just that I have this micro-second of realizing where the spot was in the globe. Don't know what this means other than relating it to my scoped shooting, it feels the same but have less of an opportunity to visually see the cross-hairs as the shot releases.
It feels overall like things are starting to come together, me hopes!

uscra112... Thanks for posting this article, I've never read about this type shooting. It certainly requires more of the shooter than does a bench rest, some of the instructions are also applicable to BR, like trigger pull...that pressure and an increase in pressure that breaks the shot as the POA slowly meanders across the bull.

A good score is not made by a large number of perfect shots, but by the absence of poor ones. It does not pay to try to pull centers unless nothing else will do in a tight place, then be careful. If the sights will not settle before you feel short of breath, put the rifle down and breath very slowly and deeply two or three times; swallow your guts and try again.

Breathing. It is extremely important that you pay careful attention to this. One should breathe slowly and deeply. Do not allow yourself to breath fast, as it tends to make the pulse rapid, which in turn affects the aim. If one is shooting continuous scores with fixed ammunition, one is apt to get short of breath before the score is finished, and the pulse goes up. This is because the blood is robbed of the necessary oxygen when holding the breath. We compensate for this by deep low breathing, making the whole surface of the lungs work instead of a small portion of the same in ordinary use. As I lift my rifle to aim, I lift it high and fill my lungs fully; as I begin to settle I breathe nearly empty, then as the aim begins to settle, I breathe about half full and hold the breath till I fire; then at once begin breathing again deeply and slowly.

The cheek piece should be high enough so the when the eye is in line with the sights as it presses firmly against the cheek, as this materially helps steady the rifle. The cheek piece if hollowed should have no projection in front, but a straight run for the rifle recoils an appreciable amount before the bullet leaves the muzzle, and any projection rolls the rifle as it drives back and disturbs the aim, and this drive-back and roll will vary with uneven holds; consequently the bullet direction also varies and you get shots where you do not expect them.

Study these methods and shoot all you can. Carefully note everything you do and you will find your work improving. Pay attention to the details.
H. M. Pope”

It is wonderful that men of his accomplishment should share these 'hard earned' disciplines with the rest of us. This is the same thing we should do with little 'milestone type discoveries' in our practice...others will pass the same way and the little 'tips-n-tricks' are little gold nuggets.

[Chill Wills]

So how would this group with ordinary U-notch and post sight do for y'all?



OK, so I might have photoshopped it just a wee bit.

Question; does this target design show up well enough using U notch and post to get the exact same hold every time? It may, I have not tried it, but it may be that a small Square black bull will allow you to hold better. You can even regulate the sights to print above it or below it to see the group better.

I make my own squares. I cut them out of black construction paper and staple them on a old used file folder. A one inch or maybe a 1.5 inch square at 25 meters may be about right depending on the width of the front post.

[OS OK]

Before the MKII came along I passed the time as I awaited delivery by experimenting with irons and various target configs. trying to find some edge with the sight system at 50 yards.
Fun and frustrating at the same time but it was a learning curve...I couldn't manage those sights at that distance because, I guess of my eyesight?
I even thought of replacing the original rear sight with a semi buck-horn, never did though so that new semi buck-horn is in the junk box today...
Here you see the difference between the original 'v' notch and the buck-horn.



Tried several .22's that have been in the safe since the kids grew up and left home some 35 years ago...even tried a cheek bead to help index my cheek weld at a fixed distance from the rear sight. I wouldn't suggest this for any rifle with more recoil than the .22lr.



I shot all the rifles that were in the safe for so many years and the most accurate for me and the most fun was the old single shot Winchester...kinda took me back in time to the 50's when as a kid I got my paws on my own little Remington that was my Mother's as a kid...



I did a short video on all the targets I tried, you wouldn't believe the crazy combinations of spots and cut-out spots I tried. Heck I was just passing time and enjoying my shooting so what the heck, me thinks?

Here's a few of my crazy ideas...



Trying to find a method to 'meter' that front blade sight on the target face, not much luck...



another crazy try...



This one illustrates the sight picture (bottom right) I was trying to get from the conglomeration of spots...



I tried color combinations and cutouts at the 6:00 and even various sizes...what a trip!



Even tried lubing the cheap rounds, thinking that'd help...man what a trip I've been on waiting for this 'peep-n-globe'...but it was a fun time, wouldn't trade it for any other experience.



That front sight hood is made from a segment of a .308W case...yah, I even added that after I ordered a new front post, the old one was long ago broken off...
I tried to fix the old post with some 2 part glue but it kept coming off...



Then came the hood...heck I thought that might help keep the shine off that bead.


It's been a fun time.

[OS OK]

The hood helped.
(had to post here, I had too many pictures going above.)

[303Guy]

Question; does this target design show up well enough using U notch and post to get the exact same hold every time? It may, I have not tried it, but it may be that a small Square black bull will allow you to hold better. You can even regulate the sights to print above it or below it to see the group better.

I make my own squares. I cut them out of black construction paper and staple them on a old used file folder. A one inch or maybe a 1.5 inch square at 25 meters may be about right depending on the width of the front post.

I found that target to work quite well. There is enough white to clearly see the front post. I didn't mention that I am now shooting with pinhole glasses. They're not perfect but one can find a hole that aligns well enough to focus the notch (or is it a V?) allowing me to see quite well. My Rest arrangement is pretty stable and I feel confident that my shot let-off is better than the outliers. I had one target with smaller to bigger squares that I didn't shoot at but thought they didn't work well for aiming at. But then I forgot the six o clock hold method.

Thanks for that information, OS OK. I have been working on my breathing. I have at times experienced rifle movement from my heartbeat somewhat greater than MOA in the past. A 22 is less noticeable because the rifle is resting on the rest and my left hand is 'steering' it with little or not pressure from my face or shoulder. I am aware of consistent hold but am not sure that I am doing it right.

In the past I built a 'machine rest' and used a remote hydraulic device to fire the gun but found I could shoot the same groups without it so I put it aside. It did show me what the rifle could do so I new I could not blame the rifle. That was a 1902 Lee Enfield with a new No4 barrel. It would shoot 1 1/4 MOA ten shot groups all day long and those groups did not shift.

Shooting 22's is a whole nudder ball game though. Sometimes one ammo type shoots good and the next session it doesn't but another ammo type shoots better. It occured to me that I am switching ammo types in different orders. Copper washed to lead and reversed and so on. I did get one ammo type shooting way of on the first shot then the next not so far of and then finally settling down. Could that be part of the problem?