So my new target ammo was a disappointment but the Aguila solid 40gr subsonic did quite well. I ran some through my scoped Remington 512 and got a one hole hole group. Seeing how it performed I sighted the rifle in for the hollow nose subsonic Aguila. Critters beware! I am now armed and sighted in.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
WEATHER PERMITTED TODAY...
I had an idea, dangerous heh? Hahaaa...well I can't help myself.
I thought of several things that might help shooting from the 50 yd. line off the bi-pod.
Shooting from the adjustable front rest and the rear sand bag I had 100 lbs. of lead on the table with the table ratchet strapped to the truck to stiffen it up. That worked at 25 yds.
Soooo...for today I put a rubber pad over the carpet and a 25 lb. lead range scrap weight on the table to take up some of the bounce, then I hung a weight, 2 lbs. 13 oz. from under the bi-pod thinking it might get the rifle to push into the rubber floor mat and maybe be a little more stable...less prone to bounce...I don't know boys, I'm spit wadding here!
I call this 'Open Class - bring what'Cha got' shooting....
It made the bi-pod stay put on the pad and I was able to put a little bit of a pre-loading push into the bi-pod from my shoulder contact. It felt really solid.
I had to remove the pencil from the comb for shooting without the bag & front rest, I'm back on my hand for a rear support, that just feels better.
Here's a couple sets I shot today...
Made a little rough sight adjustment on the second 5 rounds in the first spot...
Then I had a nice brew-break and came back at it for one more set.
Seems like just having 30 to 40 shots just doesn't make a day of shooting but...I have this little problem I ain't fessed up to till now.
I'm down to 8 boxes of this Aguila, down to 400 rounds & that will go too quick for my liking. I don't see any relief coming anytime soon to this ammo shortage.
So, that's the score for now, not much to report on...certainly no great increase in accuracy from anything I've done here.
Looks like I have made my goals but not as well as I had hoped to see.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
All that weight undoubtedly made the rifle more stable and probably allowed you to handle it more consistently. It may well change the dynamics of the rifle some.
As you said, no really noticeable change in accuracy.
Just a question, this doesn't really seem like the approach to shooting you wanted. Your goal of getting better with the rifle and sights is admirable, but I don't really see this experiment as aiding in that process. Maybe I am missing something here?
If you were attempting to see what the limits of the rifle and ammo are, I suspect you have already found it. The next obvious step would be to shoot some high end match ammo in it to see if that matters at all.
I wish you lived closer to me. I would donate a couple of boxes to the cause.
Oh...thank you tazman...that is very kind of you.
Well, I pretty much have learned to use the peep & globe fairly well but I can't measure my expertise at it until I get some more reliable ammo.
This little experiment was for my own gratification, just spitwadding to see if I might have assumed right about the bi-pod needing a little weight & the table needing a little taming so it wouldn't be such a lightweight platform and prone to bounce from the recoil.
Don't get me wrong if I sounded down about this final result & experiment...I'm satisfied with the performance of me and the Mexican ammo, it was a great learning curve getting here.
So much interest in this thread and such great information posted by all the boys...I am super appreciative of that.
Frankly I am amazed at how well this cheap ammo in a cheap rifle, shot by an old'Fatman can do.
No complaints here.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
Bad part of this situation is I can't even send the ammo to you due to the Ca laws.
Have you made any arrangements with a local shop to order some ammo in for testing?
I can still get Eley ammo online. https://www.killoughshootingsports.c...ley-ammunition Your shop could order it in. It would probably be a bit more expensive for a small batch but worth it for testing.
Maybe look at the bedding again. My results when I made a change were that the rifle became less sensitive ammo types and brands. The group hardly shifts but the group isn't great either. My sights make it difficult to pin down the cause but I may have dampened the barrel but introduced stress or a movement in the bedding. I might temporarily mount a scope to get the rifle sorted. Or put it aside until I have the aperture sight mounted then tackle the rifle.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
tazman... I did talk with my local shop over in Auburn and they said that they used to handle transactions like that, said they charge 10% of the purchase + Cal. sales tax & of course have to run the background check before handing it over.
I thought that was reasonable but there's a caveat...uuuug!
They have laid off part of their staff and are at bare bones personnel-wise to keep the shop running with this Covid BS...sooooo, they aren't doing this anymore or at least at this time. I think I'm screwed 6 ways from Sunday.
But...there's another shop down in the Orangevale area where I go to purchase my weapons, that's about a 70 mile round trip...I can speak with them about doing it, they've been running pretty much fully staffed.
So much distraction at the moment with our dysfunctional/broken Government, I honestly have lost interest/have been distracted in this little side project. It's hard to concentrate with this turmoil in the wind...especially out here behind enemy lines. You never know what your going to wake up to with these criminals running the state. No kidding!
303guy... I am satisfied with the bedding issue, this last opening where I inserted the 10 mil tape under the two pressure points of the action made this stock and action close up like two machined pieces...it had to be aligned and slowly squeezed together, now it is rock solid, there's no wiggle whatsoever. Even without the pillar block screws tightened, there's no movement in any direction.
I know I can't stop here, heck...I have 8 boxes of ammo left, I know I'll use them up hahaaa...I can't keep my hands off that rifle.
For the short time I am with it at the bench, making targets or sorting the ammo, cleaning or whatever...something magical occurs.
The whole friggin goofey, screwed up world goes away for an hour or two and I find myself in peace & bliss...that's an escape I just can't resist.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
Good News (for a change!)...Originally Posted by tazman
I spoke with the dealer where I buy my guns, have dealt with him for a couple decades now, very kind old gentleman and he and I get along like brothers.
Anyway...he said I could have the Ely shipped to him and he'd handle it for me.
OK...that leaves me with a question tazman..., I thought I'd work in the sub sonic arena since I have a choice now and I thought I'd start with a brick of each of the following Eley.
Do you have any suggestions about these ones here? Tried them before? Or...have you another suggestion for subs?
$4.25/bx above ^ ... and below is $8.50/bx
Anyone else have any suggestions? I'd appreciate your 2¢ on this...
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
To the best of my knowledge, the only ammo they currently have in stock, is the Tennex and the Match(black box). These are their top two types and are sufficiently expensive that I wouldn't buy a brick until I had tested a couple of boxes to see if they were a big improvement.
I initially ordered two boxes of Tennex an two of the Match to see which my rifle might prefer as well as some Lapua centerX and Midas+ from another site.
It turned out, my rifle likes the Tennex the best so I ordered a brick($180.00+ shipping). Quite a large investment for me.
If you click on the picture on the ammo page, it will take you to another page for that particular cartridge. There will be a spot on the right hand side where the amount and price would be. There will be a message saying out of stock or not enough to complete the order. Unfortunately, this is everything except the two most expensive types.
They have quite a large stock of Tennex and Match(black box) both of which they sell by lot number and tested velocity. Since rifles will often display a preference for a particular lot number, that is how they sell it.
Competitive match shooters will send their rifles in to be tested and buy a case or two of the ammo that works best in their rifle.
I got lucky and found some inexpensive ammunition that my rifle likes almost as well. Aguila rifle match competition. $4 a box locally. I was able to get several bricks of it before the store chain began restricting amounts. This store chain does not exist in California, so you will need to locate this ammo on your own somehow if you wish to try it.
The thing is this, eventually you will want to try out the really good stuff to see how well it works for you. Might as well get a box or two of the best they have and go from there. If it isn't much better than what you are using now, you won't be out a terrible lot of money. If it works great, then you know what you are up against money wise.
Most competitive and large volume shooters will tell you that the ammo ends up costing way more than the gun in nearly any shooting sport. It won't take a whole lot of this ammo to cost more than your rifle or mine either. You need to try a small quantity to see if it makes enough difference to merit the expense.
The Eley Tennex shot well enough in my rifle to make a perfect score possible for me on a calm day. I just have to do my part. I figure one brick is enough to run me through a year's competition. The practice ammo will serve for trigger time and learning the wind.
Last edited by tazman; 01-15-2021 at 11:40 PM.
Thank you tazman...
Thought I had it made in the shade after going to the web site....they show all that delicious candy but fail to say it's out of stock till you actually go to buy it officially!
Seems as though there were an easier way. These young pups that run these web sites don't even consider that us old'Dawgs aren't computer literate and know these things.
Well...anyway, I'll get 'a' brick now of either a mix of the two or just one of a single...I hate waiting on stuff in the mail and all the hoops I have to jump through.
All these restrictions just take the fun out of things anymore....GOD I hate politicians!
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
I understand even though I don't currently have all the restrictions you do. That site is owned by Eley. They ship quickly and use either Fedex or UPS so the package comes fast with tracking so you can follow it. I dealt with them four times so far and everything was great. But there again, I don't live in California.
I don't know if they have restrictions about shipping into California or not. Most ammo sellers do have some. It may be that your LGS will have to initiate the order.
I hope you can find ammunition your gun shoots well and can put up a case or two. I would get very frustrated dealing with the rules you are suffering through.
If you can find it, I got decent performance with Federal Auto Match and it was not expensive. But this a terrible time to work on a project like this.
Don Verna
Agreed. There are VERY limited supplies around here. Many places have raised prices significantly. The ones who haven't, don't have much inventory.
No match grade ammo available. No bulk ammo available. You can find small quantities of high speed hollow points and not much else unless you just happen across some.
Finding varieties of quality ammo to test is nearly impossible, even without the restrictions of California.
True, a terrible time to do this...but...beside that, I have desperately needed Mucho Trigger Time to escape from all the pressure and anxiety that is building over the 'State of our Nation' ... I am able to escape for a couple hours a day, weather permitting, and get behind the stock.
Yesterday I found a brick of Federal Premium HV Match I bought recently (just because they had it in stock). I've had this before and was unhappy with it's performance from my Winchester 67A. Since I want to keep the last 400 of my Aguila, I decided to take 3 boxes out and just practice on my sight picture (trying to train myself to focus on the globe - not the dang spot!)
It was a rewarding practice session but not so with Federal's groupings...this is the third target I shot. I took an old target, flipped it over and stuck 2" spots on the first round, then stuck the 3" shoot-n-see spots over that and for the third go-around, I just repaired the shoot-n-see targets. Each session produced about the same as you see here. The important part is that for a few times I was able to squeeze off some shots with the globe in focus and letting my eye do the centering of the spot within...that's a good feeling to accomplish as I have old habits that are hard to break.
BUT, THERE'S SOME BAD NEWS I NEED TO FESS UP TO:
My good'buddy Harry Tobin called as I was in the shop repairing a target and we got on the subject of figuring a way to measure the chamber of this MKII. We were on speaker phone talking and both measuring and comparing measurements of this Aguila & CCI Sub Sonic's.
Harry kept calling out his measurements of .775" or thereabouts and asking me why my COAL/fdb (Cartridge Over All Length /to/ front drive band) measurements were .100" longer?
I couldn't explain other than I figured in my head what that difference was when I built the little jig to do that measurement. Then I just 'zeroed' the dial and used the .800" as an add on to the measurement from the dial indicator.
This went on for a while and then Harry said, "take that off the caliper and let's just start over setting it up."
I complied and we together measured and set it up from the start (Harry using a calculator to check my measurements, he didn't trust me using my brain adding & subtracting! hahaaa)...as it turns out, ole'HARRY was right on the money and I have been calling out all the wrong measurements in this thread this whole time...I have been off by an even .100" of an inch on all the COAL/fdb's I've tested.
It did not change the fact that the rounds were still all the same length in testing...it just meant that I was wrong assuming they were all .800" + something. The actuall add on is .700" + what the dial added.
So that's my big disclosure for today ... thanks Harry, glad you keep a close check on this old'Dawg! hahaaa, you keep me honest!
Last edited by OS OK; 01-17-2021 at 12:03 PM.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
Your experience with the Federal HV Match mirrors mine. At 25 yards, it groups great. At 50, it opens up some. Probably from dropping through the speed of sound.
Still good practice ammo for close range.
Re your Eley ammuniton.
I use Eley almost exclusively for field and target. The Eley .38 gn hollow points are a fairly new addition to their range - The previous Eley HP's were 40 grain and shot very well for what is basically a pest control bullet. I have a fair stock of the 40gn ones I'm working through but will be sorry when they are gone, I've had a try with the newer 38gn Eley HP's and found them to be very average.
I have used Eley Contact a fair bit, it's really designed for what you might call "action" shooting, steel plates and such. It's a sub-sonic round with low recoil but a slightly heavier bullet (42gn) designed to reliably cycle semi-auto .22's
With my match rifles I use mostly Eley Tenex or Match.
These six groups were shot consecutively with the old Eley HP's (40gn) with my old Voere semi-auto, shooting with a bipod off the ground at 68 yards. (with a scope)
1066...
Would you please explain to me the various computations on that target? If not obvious what they are for, can you tell me how to use them for evaluation of shooter and ammo?
Sorry to ask but I've never run in the benchrest circles and am not familiar with the circles, diagonals and squares.
You can see I measure with a little 6" ruler and express in fractions, sorta close enough for the backyard warrior.
Got out Yesterday... Geeeez! Things in the Capitol are getting wound up like a clock spring...me too I might add. Had to get behind the trigger and release some energy, concentrate a bit and tune the rest of the world out of my brain.
The theory worked and I had peace of mind for several hours but the ammo wouldn't comply...still open groups.
This time I sorted by COAL/fdb...this HV Match runs a wee bit shorter than the Aquila.
Notice on both targets (top left - cold bbl. spot) how a cold dirty barrel shoots in from the 6:00 up...I wish I could understand the dynamics of this phenomena?
Seems as though the rounds are keeping the mandates of that COVID distancing...
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
The software I use to analyse my targets is called "ontarget" - It's simple to use and can easily be configured for different calibres/ranges etc. It was, up until a year or two ago free. Unfortunately it now costs, I think, $11 for lifetime use. I'm always very reluctant to pay for stuff like this but I must say this is something I regularly use and very pleased with it.
To get accurate measurements you need a reference point - I took a guess at the size of the black on your shoot-n-see targets as 2" - If you can tell me the exact size I can give accurate measurements.
This shows the group size and also MOA. These are center to center measurements - This doesn't fit with your measurements because I guess the 2" reference I used is wrong or you're measuring outside to outside edge.
https://www.6mmbr.com/ontargetsoftware.html
https://ontargetshooting.com/
I have been measuring center to center of these holes between the two widest hits in the group...some are not exactly round. This is a 3" spot here.
The spot above, the one your measuring is a 3" spot.
a m e r i c a n p r a v d a
Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell
Sometimes finding the center of the bullet hole can be a challenge.
I measure outside to outside and subtract the diameter of the bullet. Makes it much easier. For my needs it is easier to use a scale. I have no need to measure to .001" or even .01". KISS
Don Verna
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote
