New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[OS OK]

Something to try. It will be a pain in the backside, but you only need to do it one session. Run a dry patch, or whatever method you use between groups, after each shot and see what kind of group you get.
It would make each shot a cold bore shot and give you an idea of what the rifle will do cold and clean, as if you were hunting and waiting minutes between shots.
You never know, the group might be consistent.

Okay tazman... This is something I can do however not today...danged if it ain't raining!

I will set this last test table up just like before, lead weights & hooked to the truck ...BUT...
before I do that, let everyone that has a suggestion for re-testing.... get it into posts before I set up all that again.

[tazman]

My concern and reason for suggesting this test is something maybe happening during the first couple of shots and the remainder of the group.
If the cleaning process consistently puts the first rounds through the same low group, something is moving or being effected by the cleaning process. Any movement could be pretty small. The distance between the low rounds and the group isn't all that great but is still enough to miss a squirrels head at that range.
If all the rounds spray over the target then something else may be amiss.
Since I can't be there to help with the process and observe, all I can do is speculate as to what may be happening. This test will provide another bit of data to, maybe, clear things up some.

[1066]

My concern and reason for suggesting this test is something maybe happening during the first couple of shots and the remainder of the group.
If the cleaning process consistently puts the first rounds through the same low group, something is moving or being effected by the cleaning process. Any movement could be pretty small. The distance between the low rounds and the group isn't all that great but is still enough to miss a squirrels head at that range.
If all the rounds spray over the target then something else may be amiss.
Since I can't be there to help with the process and observe, all I can do is speculate as to what may be happening. This test will provide another bit of data to, maybe, clear things up some.

And of course, something else to try, don't clean at all between groups, not even a dry patch.

[OS OK]

The way I've been doing the cleaning is depending on only the one dry patch to get the carbon & soot from the barrel. I flip the patch over and push it a second time and that's it. I'm trying to extend the number of shots I can shoot when the bore is in it's prime.
From time to time, generally when I have over a 100 shots doing this I see the groups opening some, more than my screwing things up & at this point I've either run a wet patch or gone to the bronze brush followed by drying patches.

In this test with the rifle strapped down the concern I have is moving the rifle when doing the dry patching. I generally use a .22 cal. rod and a tight fitting jag, this takes some force on the rod & I have to hold the barrel to force it in the first stroke...however I could use a .17 cal rod and jag making the process less likely to move the rifle.

I don't know...what do you think? It may not clean as well as the tight jag does?

[OS OK]

And of course, something else to try, don't clean at all between groups, not even a dry patch.

This is how the last test was done...sorta...I dry patched before the warmer spot, before the test began but did not patch on the remaining two groups.

OR...maybe I don't understand what your suggesting?

EDIT:

Perhaps you mean to NOT patch at all. This is possible since I have only 70 shots in this barrel sequence since anything wet went into the bore.

2'nd - EDIT
{{{had to edit again, the first test 'strapped down' I shot 40, this time 30 so that's 70 total.}}}

[tazman]

Perhaps a boresnake would give you the cleaning result you need without moving the table. Never having used one, I can't say.

[OS OK]

Perhaps a boresnake would give you the cleaning result you need without moving the table. Never having used one, I can't say.

Now...there's a good idea, I've had others suggest them in the past...I will check into that. Prolly would pull through without much disturbance at all.

[dverna]

And of course, something else to try, don't clean at all between groups, not even a dry patch.

You have likely nailed it.

I was captain of the university small bore team for three years. We would never clean our guns before a match. In fact, we rarely cleaned the guns. Not uncommon to put 1000 rounds between cleaning.

More .22 bores have been compromised by over cleaning than under cleaning.

If you doubt the above here is something to consider:

https://riflebarrels.com/support/22-...is%20suggested.

Further "proof". I put a few hundred rounds through a Hi-Standard target pistol and then we put it in a Ransom Rest. At 50 yards the group was under 1.5". This was not for 10 shots....for 50 shots. Not fancy Eley Pistol Match, but some Polish ammunition that cost $.49/box. The Eley was under 1.25".

Stop cleaning your barrel. There is no need to. If accuracy drops off, then a light cleaning is all you need.

[OS OK]

Is the third test a charm?

Hard to say...I'll just give'Yas the facts and let you fellas decide...

A few caveats to start...like the parameters for today's testing.
* I didn't clean either the chamber or the barrel, we are starting on 70 shots through this barrel since a wet patch has gone through and we are ending todays test on the 100'th shot.
* I used the .875" COAL/fdb sortings for this entire test & and for a change I took a look at the rim thickness of that sorted group. This is interesting...



I figured..."what can it hurt to use all of the same rim thickness also, we haven't seen this 'double sorting' before. I used the .040" rims."
Here's the parabola of COAL/fdb sortings today.



I was careful to time the interval between sets and went for 10:00 minutes down time for the barrel to sufficiently cool so we can call this a cold barrel in each group sequence.



Here's the test target...it surprised me...but it dispelled any notions that there was something unusual going on with the 1'at & 2'nd shots. I still can't come up with a good explanation for the test before this one. I guess that's what they call an 'anomaly'?



Here's the numbers...



I am not sure...but before, in this last month or so...I have started running a wet patch and then a dry patch in the barrel when I approached 100 shots. I have always used a wet mop in the chamber to clean it before practice as I've seen the cases stick in-chamber from the carbon...I had one case stick in the second group today. I had to close the bolt 3 times to get that lil'bugger to eject.

[Harry Tobin]

This is interesting the more fouled barrel gets the better the results, it seems like the number one shot is off but now number 2 is within the group. At this point let that barrel get good and fouled and you also said the chamber was tight from carbon. Maybe just keep the chamber cleared out, now I have a nice little chamber brush that came with one of my pistols and I don’t remember which one it came with, but it’s great for cleaning the chamber. It has stiff nylon bristles, maybe something like that you can just clean the chamber when needed and leave the barrel fouled. Just a thought.

[OS OK]

Harry...Harry...Tobin... For the first time ever, you didn't surprise me with something I hadn't thought of! There's one for the books.

How's about a .17 cal mop? heheee "Been there, done that one Pard!"



hahaaa thanks Harry.

[Harry Tobin]

Harry...Harry...Tobin... For the first time ever, you didn't surprise me with something I hadn't thought of! There's one for the books.

How's about a .17 cal mop? heheee "Been there, done that one Pard!"



hahaaa thanks Harry.

one step ahead of me ya old dawg

[tazman]

Does that sight, as it appears in the picture, make it impossible to remove the bolt from the rifle?

[flounderman]

I had the best iron sight setup using the amber disk in the globe and a narrow post set at 6 oclock and bent to the bottom of the front aperture to prevent canting. just a process of centering all the holes and the bullseye.

[OS OK]

Does that sight, as it appears in the picture, make it impossible to remove the bolt from the rifle?

I swear tazman... nothing gets by you!

Yes, I have to remove the sight to pull the bolt.

It's just one screw holding the sight to the base...

[tazman]

How often do you remove the sight to clean the rifle?
My thought is about the first shot flyers. The sight may be re-seating itself after reassembly. It wouldn't take much movement and you probably would not notice it.
I can't see from the angle of the photograph, how the mounting mechanism is designed. If there might be some possibility for vibration to change the sight's position in the mounting assembly.
I don't have a sight of that type to look at.
I know you described a cleaning routine where you pushed a dry patch through the barrel. If you had to remove the sight to do that, it may not be going back exactly as it was before until a shot or two.

A boresnake would end the necessity of removing the sight to dry clean the bore.

Also, does the normal range of movement during working the bolt, allow the bolt handle to make contact with the sight knob?
Thinking of a possible cause for inadvertent sight movement.

[dverna]

OS OK,

Strapping down the gun may not provide the consistency you are looking for. Groups over an 1” at 25 yards indicate something is wrong. ES and SD are not going to affect group size at 25 yards enough to matter with large groups. In fact, the group with the best numbers was the worst.

The best way to prove the rifle/ammo is to shoot it off a rest. If you do not want to use a scope, that is fine. Peep sights are amazingly precise. Here is the question, why do you believe strapping down the rifle achieves your objective better than using bags for testing?

Another indicator of a rifle problem is your report of sticking cases with a low round count. If you have any cerrosafe, a chamber cast may be worth doing. Do you have the same issue with another brand of ammunition?



Please do not take this as an insult....but if you know a good marksman, have him/her shoot the rifle. I believe you have a rifle/ammo issue and that will settle it. If a good shooter is getting 1” groups at 25 yards, that is the best your rifle/ammo can do.

[OS OK]

The base the sight attaches to is shaped like this...the bottom of the sight has the same profile and fits over the tapered base, each time it's put back together it self aligns and locks rock solid.



I don't remove it until I want to clean the inside of the receiver & clean the bolt.

[OS OK]

OS OK,

Strapping down the gun may not provide the consistency you are looking for. Groups over an 1” at 25 yards indicate something is wrong. ES and SD are not going to affect group size at 25 yards enough to matter with large groups. In fact, the group with the best numbers was the worst.

The best way to prove the rifle/ammo is to shoot it off a rest. If you do not want to use a scope, that is fine. Peep sights are amazingly precise. Here is the question, why do you believe strapping down the rifle achieves your objective better than using bags for testing?

Another indicator of a rifle problem is your report of sticking cases with a low round count. If you have any cerrosafe, a chamber cast may be worth doing. Do you have the same issue with another brand of ammunition?



Please do not take this as an insult....but if you know a good marksman, have him/her shoot the rifle. I believe you have a rifle/ammo issue and that will settle it. If a good shooter is getting 1” groups at 25 yards, that is the best your rifle/ammo can do.

Don... Harry Tobin suggested tying the rifle down just to remove one of the variables..."me." With my RedNeck setup I used, I doubt it provided the information we'd all like to see over putting it in a lead sled for instance...the sled instead of me holding the rifle and causing some influence on the groupings.
We didn't discuss or compare bags against the tying the rifle down.
We just wanted to see what the rifle combo with this Aguila would do by itself. 25 yards seemed like a good place to start.

Yes rounds have stuck like this from other brands, I thought it just a tight chamber and carbon grit was the cause, getting blown back around the case. That's why I came up with the mop to clean just the chamber and that has worked without having a sticking issue in this instance for the first 40+ rounds. The case stuck about midway through the second group so 10+ rounds here and the 30 rounds from the second test puts the shot total at 40+.
I can tell there's going to be an issue if I feel that gritty feeling as I hand feed the round into the chamber 1/2 way in.
I don't have any Cerrosafe.

Don't know any good shooter up here in the Sierras...I live like a hermit here by choice, I don't mingle or drink with 'Bud's' at the local bar...I don't care much for people any more...it's a strange thing to say but having lived here behind enemy lines for the past 50 years these so-called friends I have had tend to weed themselves out all by themselves.

So, when I get some good weather again, I think I'll do my own shooting here on the 25 yard line just for giggles to see what happens and I'll post about that event when it's done.
I'll break out the rest and bags so we can get that behind us.

[tazman]

The base the sight attaches to is shaped like this...the bottom of the sight has the same profile and fits over the tapered base, each time it's put back together it self aligns and locks rock solid.



I don't remove it until I want to clean the inside of the receiver & clean the bolt.

Okay. Another idea shot sown. I guess you just need to keep shooting it and see if things change after more rounds.