Twist rates now and back then

[indian joe]

Rifles with slow twist (eg. 1 in 78 P.53 Enfield) can shoot Minie bullets well. You also refer to shooting round ball well with slow twist guns but not Minie “in those same guns.” Rifling pitch is not the only consideration. Depth of rifling plays a significant part and rifles designed for patch ball will generally have much deeper rifling than those designed for Minie. The latter are generally shallow with wide grooves and lands to allow the undersized bullet to expand and create an effective gas seal. Rifle grooves designed for patched round ball may not be suitable for Minie bullets irrespective of the twist.

David we could have a long discussion on roundball rifling - we sold the Euroarms Enfield three bander (1:72?8?twist) and bought a 2 bander (1:48 twist) that cured that problem permanently - but before we moved it I shot a .575 ball on a japara patch and it did fine - that combo also works fine in the 2 bander so long as we dont load too heavy.

I have done most of my ball shooting with (1980's make) CVA barrels 1:66twist - groove depth on those (best as I can measure) is 10 thou - cheap guns with as near to perfect round ball barrels as you could get .

Have had a couple Green Mountain barrels (13 thou deep rifling) and while they shoot fine IMHO they are not as versatile and easy to load for as the CVA

At present shooting a little 45cal flinter with a cheap belgian barrel, 1:48 twist, 8 thou rifling depth, shoots fine up to 40 grains FFFg (1500fps) push it any further and accuracy goes away fast. TWIST!

My Zoli mississippi rifle was easy with roundball 562 LEE ball and pillow ticking patch --its the expected three groove 1:78 twist - I measure 8 thou deep ---is there a trend here ? I dont like deep rifling for roundball - giving the fouling someplace to accumulate seems a dumb idea to me - I have a lube protocol that lets me shoot all day in matches if I want - first shot no different than the last.

I went through Fadalas loading manual - what he tested with minies were mostly 1:48 twist - somewhere else I just read that in ye olden days competitions they were required to shoot their issued rifle - if it was a 2 band or a carbine rather that a full length rifled musket they needed a written certificate from commanding officer to that effect and were handicapped by having 10% of their score deducted to cancel the advantage of having appropriate twist barrels - also saw (somewhere in your stuff I think) where the 1:72/78 was touted accurate to 600 yards but the shorter (faster twist) accurate to 1000yards - all of which ( I would think) says something about what is more appropriate twist for shooting minies ? Can it be done with less appropriate twist ? apparently so ..my latest plan is to make a new longer base plug for the mold I have for the Zoli - maybe moving the balance point forward will be enough to stabilise it ???? That slug with a bit of a squeeze would take a paper patch - maybe an option???? stiffer lube looks to be part of the story.................

The following on my web site may assist: Managing The Enfield.

The light charges apparently used by many with success in N-SSA short range matches would not suit quite a lot of Enfield shooting in the UK. Here we compete out to 600 yards and service charges or more feature.
Yep we found that 2 bander with 90 grains of Curtiss and Harveys style powder (slow burning FFg) shot on the sight graduations to 600 yards - really satisfying !!!!!
David

.........

[ResearchPress]

David we could have a long discussion on roundball rifling ........
..my latest plan is to make a new longer base plug for the mold I have for the Zoli - maybe moving the balance point forward will be enough to stabilise it ????

I wasn't sure if you'd been talking about specific patched round ball rifles, or shooting PRB in rifles designed for Minie... hence my observation. I've never fired PRB from my Enfields, and don't shoot PRB at all these days, just Minie in Enfield and cylindrical bullets in long range match rifles.

In the earliest days of the Rifle Volunteers they equipped themselves and while the bore had to accept Government ammunition and the rifle use Governement caps, regiments ended up equipping themselves with a variety of long and short Enfields. This changed fairly quickly as the Governement commenced issuing the Pattern 1853 Enfield. I've read that comment posted elsewhere about 10% score reduction etc but never found it in contemporary regulations - perhaps it applied to some regimental competitions(?). National Rifle Association matches had specific regulations for what rifles were permitted to be used in what competitions, eg. in 1862 there were Large Bore events for the Long Enfield and others for "Any Government pattern, .577 bore, in use by the rank and file." By 1865 this had changed to Large Bore A. Long Enfield. B. Any rifle of bona fide Government pattern as used by the rank and file of Volunteers Corps, and carrying .577 ammunition. C. Any rifle under 10lbs which can carry Goverment .577 bore ammunition. - By 1867 category C had been dropped. Each event rules said what rifles were permitted, and I don't see waving a piece of paper from a commanding officer that one could use a different rifle to that specified by the rules holding any sway. If anyone can cite sources to the contrary I'd be pleased to read them.

For the Queen's Prize, the Long Enfield was not considered to be accurate enough beyond 600 yards, and small-bore (.45) rifles were used - the Whitworth, with one exception when a Rigby was used, until breech loaders were introduced. Digressing somewhat now....

The Enfield bullet for the P.53 had a deep base cavity and used a base plug. Doing as you suggest with a deeper base cavity may assist. The shallow base cavity bullets often used in 1:48 twist Enfield Short Rifles may not stabilise in the slower twist rifles. Metford in the 19thC in developing explosive bullets for the Enfield rifle found that the nose cavity for the explosive charge actually improved accuracy, and he used the bullet (with an inert light filler!) to win several money prizes in rifle competitions.

David

[Good Cheer]

Unfortunately we all occasionally suffer from gunwriteritis, displaying the usual symptoms of endlessly repeating the opinions of the opinionated who themselves repeated what the previously opinionated repeated.

Facts of the matter is...
Some plain base and hollow base boolits can shoot well in some so called "deep rifling".
Some minie ball guns don't shoot minie balls worth a flip.
Some minie ball guns shoot round ball really well and some don't.
Some times a gun likes thick skirts and heavy charges and some times thin skirts and light charges and some times both.
Some times you have to be smarter than the gun.

[indian joe]

Unfortunately we all occasionally suffer from gunwriteritis, displaying the usual symptoms of endlessly repeating the opinions of the opinionated who themselves repeated what the previously opinionated repeated.

Facts of the matter is...
Some plain base and hollow base boolits can shoot well in some so called "deep rifling".
Some minie ball guns don't shoot minie balls worth a flip.
Some minie ball guns shoot round ball really well and some don't.
Some times a gun likes thick skirts and heavy charges and some times thin skirts and light charges and some times both.
Some times you have to be smarter than the gun.

ahh so I am opinionated and dumber than the gun ? thanks and good day to you too............................................... ...........

[indian joe]

I wasn't sure if you'd been talking about specific patched round ball rifles, or shooting PRB in rifles designed for Minie... hence my observation. I've never fired PRB from my Enfields, and don't shoot PRB at all these days, just Minie in Enfield and cylindrical bullets in long range match rifles.

In the earliest days of the Rifle Volunteers they equipped themselves and while the bore had to accept Government ammunition and the rifle use Governement caps, regiments ended up equipping themselves with a variety of long and short Enfields. This changed fairly quickly as the Governement commenced issuing the Pattern 1853 Enfield. I've read that comment posted elsewhere about 10% score reduction etc but never found it in contemporary regulations - perhaps it applied to some regimental competitions(?).

I assumed that from what i read - something from the stuff you directed me to this morning I thought or something I clicked my way too from there
National Rifle Association matches had specific regulations for what rifles were permitted to be used in what competitions, eg. in 1862 there were Large Bore events for the Long Enfield and others for "Any Government pattern, .577 bore, in use by the rank and file." By 1865 this had changed to Large Bore A. Long Enfield. B. Any rifle of bona fide Government pattern as used by the rank and file of Volunteers Corps, and carrying .577 ammunition. C. Any rifle under 10lbs which can carry Goverment .577 bore ammunition. - By 1867 category C had been dropped. Each event rules said what rifles were permitted, and I don't see waving a piece of paper from a commanding officer that one could use a different rifle to that specified by the rules holding any sway. If anyone can cite sources to the contrary I'd be pleased to read them.

For the Queen's Prize, the Long Enfield was not considered to be accurate enough beyond 600 yards, and small-bore (.45) rifles were used - the Whitworth, with one exception when a Rigby was used, until breech loaders were introduced. Digressing somewhat now....

The Enfield bullet for the P.53 had a deep base cavity and used a base plug. Doing as you suggest with a deeper base cavity may assist. The shallow base cavity bullets often used in 1:48 twist Enfield Short Rifles may not stabilise in the slower twist rifles. Metford in the 19thC in developing explosive bullets for the Enfield rifle found that the nose cavity for the explosive charge actually improved accuracy, and he used the bullet (with an inert light filler!) to win several money prizes in rifle competitions.

David

......

[Lead pot]

I think a lot of the inaccuracy shooting the mini is a over load of powder that will blow the skirt out when the ball clears the muzzle.
My .58 Hawken has a GM barrel and I think it has a 72 or maybe a 78 twist, not sure anymore what it is and I found getting past 80 grains of 1F the accuracy goes south.
I use a 2 ring cast out of a old Lyman Ideal mould. It hits Deer like Thors Hammer.

[indian joe]

I think a lot of the inaccuracy shooting the mini is a over load of powder that will blow the skirt out when the ball clears the muzzle.
My .58 Hawken has a GM barrel and I think it has a 72 or maybe a 78 twist, not sure anymore what it is and I found getting past 80 grains of 1F the accuracy goes south.
I use a 2 ring cast out of a old Lyman Ideal mould. It hits Deer like Thors Hammer.

Well nobody gonna accuse you of not using enough gun!!!

My son used 90 grains in his two bander - but that was a coarse slow Chinese powder more like a Fg burn rate - we switched it to homemade Fg - so we about where you would be with 75 grains of Goex FFg - the minie is a traditional style from a H T Bugg mold - that rifle will shoot the LEE 500grain 575 minie ok also - its a 1:48 twist should work easy and it does.

He had major problems with it a few years ago - had read about "Bens Red" lube someplace - and concocted a mix of Dexron II and Beeswax - boolits were tumbling at 100yards - I scrubbed the barrel out and remelted the leftover minies to get rid of the gunk - sent him back to Beeswax and neatsfoot lube and its good again - thats the only major problem we had with this gun - when he got it originally the boys in the club were all using 40 grains behind their minies (they didnt shoot real well but talked like they knew what they were doin) we worked our way up to 65 gr in steps and got noplace really - impatient I dropped a 90 charge down - shot three like that and we never changed from it - the bonus came at the long range match - everybody scrabbling with sight settings he just used the sight elevator and hit at 300, 500, 600yards - bamboozled everyone !!!!!

[Lead pot]

Its a nice short 1" long 2 groove mould 577-611 and it weighs 510gr I think what helps this mini is the .135" thick skirt.
I think the reason it shoots so well for me in the .58 is because the diameter combined with the length. I have shot it on paper at 200 yards and it will hold but it's not a MOA rifle at 200

[Good Cheer]

ahh so I am opinionated and dumber than the gun ? thanks and good day to you too............................................... ...........

All I said was that every gun likes what it likes.

I'm surprised that no one offers a thick skirted fifty caliber hollow base hunting bullet mold designed for the flood of Italian and Spanish barrels. For some reason Americans are fixated on deer rifles so seems like somebody would market the hollow base molds for heavy charges. By the way, thanks for including the info about the results with changes in lube.

[Lead pot]

I think the reason some have problems with blackpowder rifles is the magnum mentality. They seem to think for instance the .45-70 should push a bullet as fast as a .458 Win mag. And the same goes with the muzzle loaders.
I see guys my way coming to the range now that deer season is starting with their mostly inlines and I don't see smoke but I see heavy recoil when they shoot. I asked one guy what are you shooting ? He said it's a load of smokeless with a 350 gr bullet and I get better than 2200 fps.
I had no idea that there are inlines designed for smokeless. He was using a inline made by Savage.

[dondiego]

I think the reason some have problems with blackpowder rifles is the magnum mentality. They seem to think for instance the .45-70 should push a bullet as fast as a .458 Win mag. And the same goes with the muzzle loaders.
I see guys my way coming to the range now that deer season is starting with their mostly inlines and I don't see smoke but I see heavy recoil when they shoot. I asked one guy what are you shooting ? He said it's a load of smokeless with a 350 gr bullet and I get better than 2200 fps.
I had no idea that there are inlines designed for smokeless. He was using a inline made by Savage.

Very similar to elephant gun ballistics!