Hello,
For modern conical shooting, it seems that most twist rates are 1:28 or thereabouts. Rifles from the Civil War were in the neighborhood of 1:72-something now considered best suited for round balls.
Am I missing something in the definition of conical (obviously plastic sabots weren't used in the 1860's)? Does powder charge have something to do with it? I am thoroughly confused here.
Cheers,
flop
We have had a couple of those 1:72 twist civil war era replicas - could not get them to shoot minies worth a dimeOriginally Posted by Flophound
My son traded his (3 band Enfield) off and got a 1:48 twist (two bander) ----I still have mine - it shoots round ball really nice. Have seen a couple other blokes with the same trouble ---- some blokes seem to get these things shooting well with minies - no idea what it takes .
As far as conicals go, the minie is a whole nuther animal. It can shoot in the slower twists better than maxie. I'm thinking they opted for faster loading over accuracy. The way they lined up and once the smoke started flying they couldn't hardly see to aim anyway. Some people do get minies to shoot fairly accurate in the older slow twist rifles and todays minies are usually designed different than the older ones which were nose heavy which helped to keep them balanced and flying straight. This is just my opinion or maybe even more of a educated guess than anything.
Aim small, miss small!
Seldom poster here but I have been researching long range rifles used in the Civil War. Planning on duplicating the Confederate Sniper Rifles in hopes of building a long range black powder Elk rifle for use here in the Pacific NW. This area is mountainous with a lot of clear cut logging areas, shots can be as far as you can shoot. I have a Hawken 54 Cal. for the dark timber river bottom hunts, where range may be under 50 yards or less.
The Whitworth surfaces as the best example of long range rifles successfully used by the Reb's. 36 to 41 inch barrel. Special polygon shaped rifling using a polygon shaped bullet to match. So no rifling engraving. Best accuracy was paper patched.
Long range successful shots, some over 1000 yards. 45 cal, .451 bullet diameter, 520 grains, so it was long vs. diameter.
And the twist? Ah Ha!!!! 21 inches. Some writings say the twist was the main accuracy improver, not the polygon rifling.
Polygon barrels being impossible to source, I plan on using a custom 458 barrel around 36 inches long. 18 to 20 inch twist. I have a Saco mold in .458, 500 grains, so it meets Mr. Whitworth's rule of bullet length being at least 3 times the diameter for long range work.
Of course there is the Pedersoli Whitworth, in .451 polygon bore and a 36 inch barrel. With the proper twist. Around $2000. And Pedersoli has the bullet mold to match, a bottom pour mold.
Decisions, decisions.
Last edited by Stockcarver; 11-05-2020 at 05:21 PM.
You might want to play with the greenhill twist calculator at http://kwk.us/twist.html to see how velocity changes optimum twist.
I had a Zoli Zouave (1-66 I think) and heavy minie bullets never grouped well but the short Wilkinson from Moose molds (55 grains 3F, sized to bore size so a tighter fit than historic military) would shoot several shots touching at 50 yards and about a 6" group at 100 yards.
My Parker Hale 2 band 1-48 twist will shoot a Rapine trash can minie (35 grains 3F, also bore sized) similarly at 50 and 100 yards. Upping the charge for more velocity may help at 100 yards, but I haven't been out to try it yet.
My Zoli is a Missippi rifle copy with 1:72 twist - it shoots a patch ball nice - I gave up on minies (I give up easy on military stuff - not my thing)
Son has the Euroarms 2 bander (Enfield copy) with 1:48 twist - shoots a traditional shape minie fine - did no good with pipsqueak loads though - we use 90 grains FFg and fluked it - that load shoots right on the guns sights out to 600 yards
We had the 3 bander version of the same gun but 1:72 twist - useless with minies and seen several other blokes with the same problem - the guy we sold it to cut it back to 2 bander - did a nice job of it - that is gonna cause someone some grief at some point I reckon.
Much obliged for all the input, folks. I guess the whole line that "rifled muskets were far more accurate than the smoothbores that had preceded them" is a statement wholly relative to that particular moment in time. Happy to have that contextualized!
I have had different experiences with the Minie round. I have two Razeed Springfield muskets that shoot one hole with the hodgdon bullet. both are 1:72 rifling.
Many of the 3,000 members of the N-SSA.org get similar results. Bullet fit is very important, measure bore with pin gauges. Few if any in N-SSA use more than 50 grains in muskets. Many PRB folks are using 100 grains on a 150 grail ball. Work up a load. Start small and find the sweet spot
The difference is that the projectile weight of round balls are limited to what a particular sized bore will allow; and conical boolits, being elongated ILO round, are heavier than RB's.
Different powder charges, combined with projectile weights, resulting in differing ballistic energy.
The patched RB has much less surface contact with the rifling, so if they're fired in a bore that has the faster rifling, the PRB can strip out enough to effect accuracy due to the projectile being made a little less stabile.
The conical boolit's surface obviously has a lot more contact with the rifling than a PRB, which allows for a heavier powder charge & the resulting terminal performance.
.
Now I lay me down to sleep
A gun beside me is what I keep
If I awake, and you're inside
The coroner's van is your next ride
I found the McGowen barrels twist rate calculator yesterday. --->>> https://mcgowenbarrel.com/twist-calculator/
I entered the spec's for a bullet at 1600 - 1700 FPS and the recommended twist rate was 1 in 44".
Then entered the same bullet spec's with a velocity of 1200 and it recommended a 1 in 38" twist and posted "Warning low velocity".
That illustrates the concept of RPM's as powder charges alter them.
FWIW, the first riflings were very fast twists that didn't work out very well with round balls but may have been better than nothing.
IIRC it took another almost 100 years before conicals were invented that could benefit the most from those same fast twist rates.
So when it comes to which came first, the conicals or the fast twist barrels, it was the fast twist rifling that set the precedent.
Then inventing the conicals that would shoot best with them came much later.
It's still asked today, whether fast twist barrels can shoot patched round balls well, and many will still say that they will at a lower velocity.
But lower velocity usually means only for a short distance.
The Confederate Whitworths typically had a 33” barrel, and were essentially a budget version of Whitworth military match rifles.
The polygonal rifling is a distraction and was superseded in the 1860s by shallow grooved rifling using hardened cylindrical bullets, notably the Gibbs-Metford and the later Rigby rifles. The importance of Whitworths work was establishing a relationships between bullet length/weight, bore size and rifling twist. For the 530 grain bullet that military thought necessary at the time he determined .45 bore and 1 in 20 rifling.
Your planned 36 inch barrel and 1 in 18 to 20 pitch is typical of British long range match rifles of the 19thC. Still used today in competition out to 1200 yards. The Whitworth by the way will shoot soft lead cylindrical bullets that expand to fit the hexagonal rifling.
The larger bore military rifles such as the Enfield fired the hollow based Minie bullet. The P.53 Enfield had 1 in 78 rifling and was used by British Rifle Volunteers in competition out to 600 yards. More popular today are the Short Rifles with 1 in 48 pitch rifling - this may in part also be due to the position of the rearsight, being further forward than on the P.53 and can give a better sight picture. Here in the UK we still have National Rifle Championship matches out to 600 yards for Enfield rifles with the MLAGB.
David
Last edited by ResearchPress; 11-07-2020 at 05:16 AM. Reason: Typo correction
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Historical firearms, long range target shooting and associated history
I thought the whole idea of the minie was to be able to load it loose fit down a dirty bore in order to cycle shots faster than a patched ball.?
Thats the conditions we are shooting under - if its down to a tight fitting slug and clean between shots to get accuracy ? why not just use the more relevant tighter twist? .
Have read this about one hole accuracy from minies out of slow twist barrels before today but have yet to see it happen on a target range (yeah I know I dont hang out on the right ranges or I woulda seen this hundreds of times) however we can take those same loose fit minies that are hitting the stop butt sideways, feet from our aiming mark, send them down a 48 twist barrel and put in a decent score - life gets easy again.
Somewhere along the away something has got lost in the translation -
Indian Joe
We can still load and fire up to 20 shots w/o cleaning. With the right bullet/lube/ powder combo you can do more. Send me an email address or tel. number and I will send pics
What folks who only dabble the minie world don’t understand is that the minie was the last word in muzzleloading tech along with the Whitworth. It was developed as a system to operate under certain parameters. Now add 150 years of the mists of time and generations of hearsay and we have what you mention in regards to the minie. Now for the TRUTH of the matter.
Carbine is correct. I shoot in the same competition organization (against Carbine) but we still exchange ideas and advice. I bought an 1862 Colt contract repop from him that will put 5 shots into one hole at 50yds. IF you stick with what we’ve found in North South Skirmish competition regarding technique for accuracy, these guns can shoot better than many modern ones. Both my Parker Hales are sub 2moa at 100yds.
Going back to system design, IF you get the lube right and in balance with the powder charge level AND use a quality cap in a gun in good condition, many shots can be fired with good or better accuracy without wiping. Example, in our muzzleloading instruction, I was asked how many shots could be fired without wiping. At that point, the gun had already been fired about a dozen times. I started counting and the session ended at 58 shots not counting the first dozen. So easily 60+ were fired and the last 5 shots were fired by a kid who started shooting the chains off the gongs at 50yds. All this with a slow twist, real black powder, homemade lube and minies.
Upshot, don’t believe the stuff you see on utoob. Hang out with us in the N-SSA if you want to know just how accurate these things can be. Carbine is one of the higher up guys and would be glad to send you more info.
A man cannot have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
Rudyard Kipling
Palmetto Sharpshooters
North South Skirmish Association
NRA Muzzleloading Instructor
You might look at starting out with a .458/.459 bore diameter to use 45-70 molds.
Also it's easy to paper patch them and run them through a push through sizer if you want to go that route.
My .458 bore rifle is a TC New Englander, about like shooting a 45-70 rolling block carbine.
I've paper patch Keith SWC's for plinking. Want to try some pistol and revolver round noses patched also.
Can anyone give advice & experience with the M1842 conversion musket? Any DOPE with the 730 gr Lyman expanding ball in either an original or replica cal. .69 rifle musket would be greatly appreciated!
Twist rates increase faster as the length of said bullet gets longer.
That said, a round ball is the absolute shortest bullet per its length that is possible, thus it can use a very slow twist.
Something like the so-called 'collar-button' bullet also can use a slow twist. A collar button being something like a 170gr .45cal full wadcutter.
A 300gr. 45cal would need a faster twist because it is long compared to diameter.
This holds true in modern cartridges as well as old smoke poles.
Example is the heavy weight .223 AR15. the 63 or 70gr bullets need a 1:7 twist whereas 55gr does well with 1:9.
.22LR does well with 1:16 or 1:14 because it is still .22cal but it is a lighter/shorter bullet
example .30-30 does well with 1:14 twist but it typicall has a round nose (short length) and 150 or 170gr.
.30-06 with a 200gr spire point boattail is a much longer bullet and will need 1:10
Same with black powder, short fat bullet = slow twist
elongated bullet = faster twist.
I have some .45 cal minies that I cannot group well out of 1;48 nor 1:66 twist.
But, I can stabilize .45 Keith pistol (solid base) out of 1:66
I can stabilize almost any solid base out of the .45 1:66, but in no case can I stabilise the minie hollw base.
My experience is a .696" bore diameter.
When something like that happens you either go for a bigger diameter mold, or a modification to the blocks or paper patching.
Last edited by Good Cheer; 11-08-2020 at 10:35 AM.
Dave ---my opinion was NOT formed watching utube - NO - I got it burning blackpowder on the 100yard line - the slow twist guns were a piece of cake with roundball - accurate was easy (I like roundball and I have shot it a lot and that helped for sure in starting a load) minies in those same guns, with the info and kit we had available at the time was a waste of time - switch to a 1:48 twist and that also was easy with minies - I figured there must be some secret in the design of minies for these guns that had eluded the makers of the molds we used ? Its not only me, several other shooters have struck the same snag - we keep getting told we are not doing it right and how well these guns will shoot if we would only load the right way - still no information has been divulged - no beans spilled. If you have some beans to spill on this I am all ears.What folks who only dabble the minie world don’t understand is that the minie was the last word in muzzleloading tech along with the Whitworth. It was developed as a system to operate under certain parameters. Now add 150 years of the mists of time and generations of hearsay and we have what you mention in regards to the minie. Now for the TRUTH of the matter.
Carbine is correct. I shoot in the same competition organization (against Carbine
Going back to system design, IF you get the lube right and in balance with the powder charge level AND use a quality cap in a gun in good condition, many shots can be fired with good or better accuracy without wiping. Example, in our muzzleloading instruction, I was asked how many shots could be fired without wiping. At that point, the gun had already been fired about a dozen times. I started counting and the session ended at 58 shots not counting the first dozen. So easily 60+ were fired and the last 5 shots were fired by a kid who started shooting the chains off the gongs at 50yds. All this with a slow twist, real black powder, homemade lube and minies.
Upshot, don’t believe the stuff you see on utoob. Hang out with us in the N-SSA if you want to know just how accurate these things can be. Carbine is one of the higher up guys and would be glad to send you more info.
I have shot a LEE minie successfully in a CVA with 1:66 twist - but it was only a 45 cal and a pretty darn steamy load to get it to work - not something I wanted to duplicate in a 58 because of recoil.
Rifles with slow twist (eg. 1 in 78 P.53 Enfield) can shoot Minie bullets well. You also refer to shooting round ball well with slow twist guns but not Minie “in those same guns.” Rifling pitch is not the only consideration. Depth of rifling plays a significant part and rifles designed for patch ball will generally have much deeper rifling than those designed for Minie. The latter are generally shallow with wide grooves and lands to allow the undersized bullet to expand and create an effective gas seal. Rifle grooves designed for patched round ball may not be suitable for Minie bullets irrespective of the twist.
The following on my web site may assist: Managing The Enfield.
The light charges apparently used by many with success in N-SSA short range matches would not suit quite a lot of Enfield shooting in the UK. Here we compete out to 600 yards and service charges or more feature.
David
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