severe leading on first cast boolits

[guy_with_boolits]

At this point (mouth at 471), you might try seating the bullet just a scosh deeper.
But if the cartridge is currently seating with the rim flush on plunk/no force, I'd just walk away for now and shoot it

so now what I've done is:

-very carefully adjust depth of bullet die (whole die, not the seater plug), to make it so case mouth is straight with no inward crimp
-seating bullet lower, like to 1.16" COAL

This results in a plunk test that has pretty free rotation..not as free as a bare case but pretty free..

However, case bottom is now slightly below barrel hood...

I notice that empty cases are also below barrel hood by what seems to be same amount..

Is the idea here that no part of the bullet touches the barrel during the plunk test and the case is located entirely by the case lip?

[mehavey]

The case headspaces on the rim.

If the pistol still fires reliably with rim seating flush/just slightly below the hood, you're OK.
As to "no part of the bullet" contacting the throat/barrel -- as long as the cartridge seats freely -- that's OK too.

[guy_with_boolits]

The case headspaces on the rim.

If the pistol still fires reliably with rim seating flush/just slightly below the hood, you're OK.
As to "no part of the bullet" contacting the throat/barrel -- as long as the cartridge seats freely -- that's OK too.

thanks...

so what is the bottom line with "minimum coal" specified in load data? why is that even specified if its sometimes impossible to maintain?

[onelight]

so now what I've done is:

-very carefully adjust depth of bullet die (whole die, not the seater plug), to make it so case mouth is straight with no inward crimp
-seating bullet lower, like to 1.16" COAL

This results in a plunk test that has pretty free rotation..not as free as a bare case but pretty free..

However, case bottom is now slightly below barrel hood...

I notice that empty cases are also below barrel hood by what seems to be same amount..

Is the idea here that no part of the bullet touches the barrel during the plunk test and the case is located entirely by the case lip?

You can use a bullet to set the headspace , I don't it can cause problems that offset any accuracy gain I may get.
For how I use my loads reliability is first.
If your bullet engages the rifling you run the risk of the gun not going into battery and or or a bullet sticking and making it very difficult to get the slide back and possibly pulling the bullet from the case and leaving it in the barrel . It's not a dangerous situation at the range (you can't chamber a round behind it) but is a pain to get a rod and remove it. I personally want a plunk test that duplicates factory ammo in my range ammo.
You may have different priorities .

[pmer]

Sounds like guy with boolits is well on his way. I was in the same boat with my 1911 in times past. Pistol brass seems to get shorter with use I don't think I've ever had to trim them for being too long. Pistols are designed to operate with certain nose profiles and cartridge lengths and that might be why your book shows a minimum OAL. But go with it if it feeds nice. I don't have that Lee boolit, I have a Redding 200 grain SWC, I seem to get the best plunk / feeding when the shoulder is just slightly above the case mouth. I don't know what the length is.

[P Flados]

The Min AOL in the load data can be very important.

What it means is that if you go shorter, and you load with the charge listed you can expect higher pressures.

However, that does not mean "do not load to that AOL". It means you need to back off some on the charge.

I have a tool (Quickload) that is actually pretty good at "adjusting loads" for thing like this. I ran a case with Bullseye and a 200 gr bullet in 45 ACP and found that a 0.020" shorter AOL required 0.2 gr less powder to get the same predicted pressure.

FYI, When you are asking questions about a load that is giving you problems, listing all of the details of the load lets some of us provide responses that are more tailored to your exact situation.

[guy_with_boolits]

I went and shot 7 rounds of this load today:

LEE 452-200-SWC tumble boolit, most likely very soft lead (but not pure)
PC'd 20 mins @ 400F then water dipped
4.6gn bullseye
1.164" COAL
range pickup brass
large pistol primers
1911 5" barrel
carefully adjusted bullet seating die BODY to make case straight with no inward or outward flare on lip
carefully adjusted bullet seating DEPTH so plunk test allowed easy rotation (only 4 of the 7 actually were completely easy, the other 3 were a little tight but still rotated)


I was not able to chrono so I just shot at an empty water bottle at 7 yards.

Seems reasonably accurate since I got two hits within 2".

However, 3 of the 7 failed to feed and jammed on the way into the ramp, leaving a nice dent on the case.

Any way to fix this? Or should I just move on to a different mold/boolit?

EDIT: also shown are 2 cases I picked up after firing..couldnt find the other 2 that fired

[243winxb]

"jammed"

The case head must slide up & under tne extractor freely. But first try different magazines. If you have more that 1 magazine, number them, so you know what one doesnt feed.

[guy_with_boolits]

I can make it jam on the bench just running the cycle...

pictured is the type of jam I was getting while trying to shoot..either from a slide release or an actual full cyclce

I mean the SWC doesnt have as nice of a curve to angle it up as an RN does. The super soft lead probably isnt helping either.

The pic shows how the cases get their dents..they get smashed onto the inner edge of the chamber bevel when the soft squarish SWC front end gets stuck on the chamber roof because the SWC has more of a squarish profile that doesnt smoothly rotate it, and even if it might the soft lead flattens out making things worse as far as transmitting forces which would turn the boolit

[guy_with_boolits]

I seem to see two equally common but opposite recommendations for SWC in 45ACP and 1911s: load them short, and load them long.

Maybe I need to load them long, and maybe I incorrectly came to the conclusion I had to load them short with the plunk test I was doing. After all, if the chamber headspaces on the case, and there is a distance between that headspacing shoulder and the rifling, shouldnt the boolit fit in that space without touching?

[David2011]

The following may or may not help but it’s something else to consider for feeding. I’ve done quite a bit of 1911 work including some to make very light loads feed reliably which is more difficult than reliably feeding full or near full power loads.

Be sure you’re measuring the case mouths at .471” and not just observing that the walls are “straightened out.” There can be a burr on the mouth so I measure just a hair’s breadth behind the mouth.

The feeding of a 1911 is not a smooth event as bolt action rifles do. The slide bangs into the head of the cartridge and then the forward end starts to rise as the case exits the magazine feed lips. The cartridge is slammed into the feed ramp at quite an angle. The cartridge has to pivot over the intersection of the barrel part of the feed ramp and the bottom of the chamber. As it pivots the case head slides up under the extractor and the cartridge is driven into the chamber as the gun goes into battery.

There are many places where this can go badly. One common problem is where the feed ramp meets the chamber. On new barrels that juncture can be pretty sharp. I’ve fixed stoppages caused there by polishing a tiny radius at the juncture. This is not a place to try out a Dremel tool. It requires a fine touch and some gunsmithing experience.

Another common problem is the extractor tension. If it’s too tight it will slow down the slide and the loading process. A well prepared extractor lets the case slide under it smoothly.

Soft lead may ding as it hits the feed ramp or the top of the chamber but it shouldn’t cause a stoppage. You can experiment with dummy cartridges (no primer or powder) with varying COALS. SWCs are different than the ball ammo profile in the max OAL requirement and every SWC profile has its own best OAL for your gun. For testing pull the slide all the way back and fully release it. If your hand rides the slide forward that will slow it down and possibly cause jams.

[guy_with_boolits]

The following may or may not help but it’s something else to consider for feeding. I’ve done quite a bit of 1911 work including some to make very light loads feed reliably which is more difficult than reliably feeding full or near full power loads.

Be sure you’re measuring the case mouths at .471” and not just observing that the walls are “straightened out.” There can be a burr on the mouth so I measure just a hair’s breadth behind the mouth.

The feeding of a 1911 is not a smooth event as bolt action rifles do. The slide bangs into the head of the cartridge and then the forward end starts to rise as the case exits the magazine feed lips. The cartridge is slammed into the feed ramp at quite an angle. The cartridge has to pivot over the intersection of the barrel part of the feed ramp and the bottom of the chamber. As it pivots the case head slides up under the extractor and the cartridge is driven into the chamber as the gun goes into battery.

There are many places where this can go badly. One common problem is where the feed ramp meets the chamber. On new barrels that juncture can be pretty sharp. I’ve fixed stoppages caused there by polishing a tiny radius at the juncture. This is not a place to try out a Dremel tool. It requires a fine touch and some gunsmithing experience.

Another common problem is the extractor tension. If it’s too tight it will slow down the slide and the loading process. A well prepared extractor lets the case slide under it smoothly.

Soft lead may ding as it hits the feed ramp or the top of the chamber but it shouldn’t cause a stoppage. You can experiment with dummy cartridges (no primer or powder) with varying COALS. SWCs are different than the ball ammo profile in the max OAL requirement and every SWC profile has its own best OAL for your gun. For testing pull the slide all the way back and fully release it. If your hand rides the slide forward that will slow it down and possibly cause jams.

Good info..key question that you would probably know the answer to..given all the above, why would round nose feed so easily and so universally but SWC feed so unreliably and much less universally

[P Flados]

I am not sure how to help you with the feeding issues, but I did run some stuff through Quickload.

You have the Lee tumble lube 200 gr. At 0.578" long, this bullet is shorter than most 200 SWCs. For a given AOL, a short bullet gives you more space in the case and less pressure. Note that the Alliant load data includes the Speer 200 LSWC. That bullet is 0.660" or 0082" longer that yours. To get the same seating depth as the Alliant 1.2" AOL with the Speer, you would be at 1.118" AOL with the Lee.

Just for margin I used an AOL a little shorter than your current load at 1.15". I then found it took 5.3 gr of Bullseye to stay just below the pressures I got when ran the Alliant 200 SWC load. Calculated speed from a 5" gun was 960 fps.

If this is just a target/plinking load, I would go for a charge that is just a little above the minimum needed to cycle the gun properly.

[guy_with_boolits]

I did a specific test to see if I could somehow load these long..like 1.250" which I seem to see recommended..

nope..bullet clearly headspacing right up to 1.18" when you could finally rotate the case pretty freely

dropping the boolit into the chamber shows it falls about 0.030" past the ridge that headspaces the case

not sure how people are loading to 1.250" COAL....must have a huge gap between rifling and case mouth in their chamber..mine is not like that

[guy_with_boolits]

I am not sure how to help you with the feeding issues, but I did run some stuff through Quickload.

You have the Lee tumble lube 200 gr. At 0.578" long, this bullet is shorter than most 200 SWCs. For a given AOL, a short bullet gives you more space in the case and less pressure. Note that the Alliant load data includes the Speer 200 LSWC. That bullet is 0.660" or 0082" longer that yours. To get the same seating depth as the Alliant 1.2" AOL with the Speer, you would be at 1.118" AOL with the Lee.

Just for margin I used an AOL a little shorter than your current load at 1.15". I then found it took 5.3 gr of Bullseye to stay just below the pressures I got when ran the Alliant 200 SWC load. Calculated speed from a 5" gun was 960 fps.

If this is just a target/plinking load, I would go for a charge that is just a little above the minimum needed to cycle the gun properly.

thanks..if I somehow fix the feeding issues and proceed with this SWC boolit this info will help maximize things

[P Flados]

It just occurred to me that your opening post did not mention jams.

Did the jams start after you reduction in AOL. If so, you may want to see if going back to a little longer AOL fixes the jams even if you are not getting a perfect plunk.

If this fixes the jams, a less than perfect plunk might be something you can live with as long as the gun is reliable in going into battery (slide fully forward) and as long as you can eject loaded cartridges without any problems.

Alternately, the gun can be fixed to remove (ream, lap, polish etc.) a little metal at the throat and make the gun more "cast friendly". A poster on this forum (Doug Guy) does this a lot & folks seem to be well pleased with his work. He would also be likely willing to polish a little on your ramp if desired.

[P Flados]

.must have a huge gap between rifling and case mouth in their chamber..mine is not like that

For cast bullets, a more than minimal throat is usually a good thing. Many autos have minimal throats. This is why so many people have resorted to getting their guns "fixed" by people like Doug Guy.

[fcvan]

"why would round nose feed so easily and so universally but SWC feed so unreliably and much less universally" Pretty easy, the design from early last century was for RN FMJ, period. The RN hits and guides the bullet/boolit more easily than a SWC with 2 separate contact points during the feed cycle. I bought a SA plain Jane 1911 in 1987, parkerized finish. At the time, Colt 1911s were 400, the SA was 269. It wasn't 6 months later that the SA 1911 was going for the same price as they became popular for competitors who sent their guns to the gunsmith for tweaking as the quality was there.

First mold, Lee 452-228 1R, then the 452-200 SWC. I did nothing to the gun but shoot it and it fed the SWC just fine. The chamber of the SA was 'generous' so I figure that might have helped. I never really 'hot rodded' loads for the 1911, and generally ran 6 gr of Unique as my go-to load, even though the Lyman #49 suggested slightly over 7 was within specs.

Later, I picked up a couple more molds, the Lee 450- 200 1R and the 450-200 RNHP, back when they made such things. Sure, the 450 molds were conicals for an 1858 Rem Percussion and were tapered bases to ease seating in the 1858 copy. I decisded I like shooting RB more than anything, so I loaded a few more for the 45 ACP just to try. Lead was from a range where everything fired was 38 SP HBWC, swaged from pretty soft lead. I ran them through the Lyman 450 at .452 using Javalina (50/50 Alox/Beeswax). The boolits were definitely sized down, with the tapered bases barely being touched. My molds dropped fatter than .450 diameter. They fed and shot fine through the 1911.

Flash forward about 30+ years, I tended to load and shoot just the 452-228 1R even though I had collected q few more molds. I stopped loading the 200 SWC and did a horse trade with a member here during the last component shortage. Just back from the sandbox after 8 years and many tours as a Marine, he got dies and that mold, and I got some 'odds and ends' he had collected while looking for what he wanted/needed. It felt good to help someone who fought for us, and I got some goodies I would not have normally picked up.

Then, I got into 45 Colt and picked up a 20" carbine and a 4 5/8" OM Vaquero. More molds . . . I did hot rod that once, using the 450-200 RN molds, also with Javalina. Same soft lead, same Javalina, 2000 fps, no leading. I also started making plain based gas checks out of soda can aluminum, even though they didn't need them. I still have a bunch of those lubed/sized and boxed up with wax paper between layers. I started powder coating everything, first with ESPC, next ASBBPC, ala shake and bake. I haven't used my Lyman 450 for almost 8 or 9 years.

Okay, long winded, but it is a long entry to say, I know what my barrel/gun is, you did not name yours. I did not fire any jacketed until I had probably 15 or 20K boolits down the pipe. Since I didn't have copper fouling in the bore I did not experience any associated fouling. Did you fire jackets before lead boolits? That could contribute to the kind of leading shown in your pictures. Clean the bore of any copper and see. Your liquid alox may very well have been too 'watered down' to do much good. I have only used liquid alox a couple of times, most recently in a 300 BO at 2000 fps. that was 50/50 alox/mineral spirits, 2 coats. That rifle had never seen a jacketed bullet, it was unfired.

In a previous post, it was mentioned that a rough bore from a worn die for cutting the lands/grooves. There are plenty of threads about fire lapping a bore to smooth it out. I just shoot mine, and my most recent builds haven't seen jacketed, just PC without gas checks and with. The 45 ACP should not need gas checks, it just doesn't develop that much speed or pressure. Not even the 2000 FPS RN from the 45 Colt carbine was a problem with leading. Still, my favorte load for that carbine and the Vaquero was a 454 RB, crimped on the equator of the RB, going 900 FPS from the carbine, didn't chrono the Vaquero, but they were quiet and hard hitting.

Good luck with your endeavors, try 2 coats, shoot more PCd boolits (they clean out lead and copper fouling) and if you feel the need to fire lap the bore, go slow. PCd boolit, Pearl Drops Tooth Polish in the lube groove, shoot 10 and check. Don't load a bunch as you won't need a bunch. Another thing is the new gun needs to break in as well. My gunsmith was also a competitive shooter and made the following suggestion. Clean the heck out of the gun, 2 drops of Pearl Drops on the rail/slide, 1 on the sear, shoot a box, clean and lube the pistol as normal. My SA 1911 was smooth as silk after 1 box as would normally occur after 1000 rounds. Unorthodox? Probably, but it beat fighting a new pistol that needed the mating surfaces to 'break in.' Mine still shoots like the dickens and was my EDC for several decades, then my Wife bought me a Glock 22C. Another story for another time, but it sees a steady diet of cast lead, no Glock Kaboom.

[guy_with_boolits]

Thanks for the info fcvan

I forgot to mention that the 4 rounds I was able to fire did not seem to leave leading. Just maybe a dark shadow in the grooves.

I have put up an ad for wanted-to-buy 45ACP round nose mold. A fine forum member has offered a double cavity Ideal 452-374. Its not a tumble lube style but that doesn't matter if I PC it right? I think its a 225 grain.

Would that put an end to my SWC woes? I dont even know why I got SWC to begin with. After studying my pistol and the posts here it seems like the 1911 design was meant for the round nose given how it feeds so I dont know why I wouldnt just use that.

I think I can use my lee handles with this mold too.

[mehavey]

Don't give up on that SWC "just yet"

Believe it or not, try increasing the OAL a tad to get the nose to strike
the chamber top/tip over/straighten out a skosh quicker.

As long as the cartridge rim stays at/below the barrel hood when dropped in, you should be Good2Go.