Paper Patch Lube

[Good Cheer]

Off and on over the years I've noted that with paper patched hollow based boolits the patch remnants in front of the muzzle sometimes show that the patch failed right at the lip of the skirt, apparently due to that being the point which the squeeze on the paper was greatest. Hollow based patched slugs in the .69 rifled musket was where it initially grabbed my attention, the patch fragments being rather large.



Have any you fellas noticed failure at the edge of the skirt? Did you come up with a lube to reduce the friction?

I've thought about using Paul Matthews' formula with petroleum jelly and beeswax or some other concoction, just dipping the base of the patched boolit in about a 1/8" deep hot pool of the lube.

[Chemoman]

i do not use any lube at all. some use lip balm which is a wax. if you have to use a lube put it on as loading. wax is the best but again i use no lube at all with good results.

[GregLaROCHE]

Best way to know is to try it. I can’t see any risks. It will be interesting to hear your results.

.69 caliber rifled bore, is that a 1822 Tbis by any chance?

[Good Cheer]

Oh no, it's an Armisport 1847, 33" barrel with the standard US three groove rifling.

[GregLaROCHE]

Oh no, it's an Armisport 1847, 33" barrel with the standard US three groove rifling.

Nice looking gun!

[idahoron]

I don't use any lube going through the sizer. I have seen at times when the paper has cut but only on some bullets. On my Lee 500 S&W bullet, the one that started all this paper patching craze it is actually a gas check bullet. The bottom is a "high drag boat tail"




The design on that bullet will never have a cut bottom. On my RCBS 11mm bullet I have seen it happen a time or two. I normally just re wrap and go on.

[GregLaROCHE]

I don't use any lube going through the sizer. I have seen at times when the paper has cut but only on some bullets. On my Lee 500 S&W bullet, the one that started all this paper patching craze it is actually a gas check bullet. The bottom is a "high drag boat tail"




The design on that bullet will never have a cut bottom. On my RCBS 11mm bullet I have seen it happen a time or two. I normally just re wrap and go on.

I would really like to cast that boolit. I looked on Lee’s website, but didn’t see it. Biggest is 310 grain. Have they discontinued that mould or am I just not looking in the right place? I saw S&W and thought it was a pistol boolit that with PP increased the diameter. Is that the C457-500F? If so, did you size it way down to PP? I haven’t had much luck doing so.
Thanks

[Nobade]

I have tried wiping a bit of jojoba oil on patched bullets before loading them, heard it was beneficial. I couldn't tell any difference between oiled and not so stopped trying it, more work for no results. I just shoot them dry any more.

[idahoron]

I would really like to cast that boolit. I looked on Lee’s website, but didn’t see it. Biggest is 310 grain. Have they discontinued that mould or am I just not looking in the right place? I saw S&W and thought it was a pistol boolit that with PP increased the diameter. Is that the C457-500F? If so, did you size it way down to PP? I haven’t had much luck doing so.
Thanks

The Lee 500 S&W bullet.

https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-c501-440-rf.html

I shoot tgem in my 50 cal.
In my 45 I use the RCBS 11mm bullet

[bedbugbilly]

Good Cheer - it sounds like I have the same rifle as you - Armisport "Macon Rifle" - basically a 2 band 1842 model with a 33" .69 caliber barrel.

I am getting ready to start playing with projectiles - I have never paper patched but it sounds like a good approach that I hadn't't considered. Can you advise what the mod is that you show and maker? Diameter and grain weight?

I have an Ideal 685-69 minie ball mold to try out but really don't want to constantly throw 700 + grain down range. I had given some thought to maybe having Accurate cut a hollow base mold in the same design as a hollow base "Foster"" style shotgun slug - they list that they will cut a hB but I'd have to have a base pin made up to then fit themold. The mold and design you show looks interesting and the shooting that I do, a paper patched boolit might be a better option and way to go.

What distances are you shooting your Armisport and how do you find th accuracy?

Thanks. Appreciate any info you can provide.

Jim

[yeahbub]

I've never noticed the particular problem of tearing the patch at the heel, but it's a reasonable conclusion that it occurs due to the outward force against the barrel steel when it's fired. I've wondered about the force of obturation at the base of long, soft boolits, but I never saw any pinched off patches so far. With that hollow-base .69, I'd think the question is whether the paper is being pinched through or pulled apart, possible due to adherence to and wear against those miniscule tooling marks visible in your photo of the bore at the muzzle. Perhaps a bit of lapping at the breech end to reduce/smooth/polish the crosswise marks, giving the paper less to grab onto.

On my PP boolits, a generous rubbing of 541/Emmert's has produced good results. For smokeless, I tumble-lube in Ben's Liquid Lube or LLA and 25% liquid carnauba wax, which keeps the LLA from being so tacky, and they're waterproof. Another option I've tried but never followed up on is to first spray the PP'd boolits with that aerosol Teflon stuff for locks (Blaster brand at Home Depot), then smear them with Emmert's or BLL.

[Chemoman]

never lubed before, my pp bullets. remembered i have a spray can of teflon. so i sprayed 33 50 cal 450 grain swagged pp bullets. will shoot them soon. i suspect they will shoot the same as the dry wrapped ones with no lube. the teflon spray didnt ruin the paper at all. dried very fast. now to shoot them.

[charlie b]

Because of Ron's success I use PP bullets in my Lyman. Same S&W mold as well as the Hornady Great Plains (slight hollow) and 450gn PP bullets from BACO (slight hollow). They are all fired with a card wad over powder and lubed felt wad, then the bullet.

When you say they failed at the lip do you mean the base or the nose area? If the base and wrapped as Ron shows, then I would attribute it to the gas forcing the 'tail' up into the hollow base, tearing unevenly. The tear would happen before the gas pressure is high enough to expand the skirt.

If it is tearing at the nose section then I suspect the bullet might be a bit small and the paper is tearing as the bullet nose 'wobbles' in the bore.

The bullets I have used in my .50cal require a hefty powder charge to properly upset the entire bullet into the grooves. If your loads are 'light' then the forward part of the bullet is probably not being upset into the grooves enough.

[Good Cheer]

Because of Ron's success I use PP bullets in my Lyman. Same S&W mold as well as the Hornady Great Plains (slight hollow) and 450gn PP bullets from BACO (slight hollow). They are all fired with a card wad over powder and lubed felt wad, then the bullet.

When you say they failed at the lip do you mean the base or the nose area? If the base and wrapped as Ron shows, then I would attribute it to the gas forcing the 'tail' up into the hollow base, tearing unevenly. The tear would happen before the gas pressure is high enough to expand the skirt.

If it is tearing at the nose section then I suspect the bullet might be a bit small and the paper is tearing as the bullet nose 'wobbles' in the bore.

The bullets I have used in my .50cal require a hefty powder charge to properly upset the entire bullet into the grooves. If your loads are 'light' then the forward part of the bullet is probably not being upset into the grooves enough.

Well, the paper is undergoing the greatest amount of stress and failure at the end of the hollow base skirt (that's the lip) where the paper receives the greatest compression against the bore. Hence the question posed, as to whether or not anyone had experienced such and tried a lube to reduced the friction. Suppose I'll try the lanolin-olive oil-beeswax that I use for almost everything black powder, or else the version with a goodly portion of petroleum jelly adjunct that is generally used for things smokeless. The weatherproofing lube that Matthews used on paper patches was petroleum jelly and beeswax and might avoid olive oil or lanolin migration but that's not one I mix up and keep a supply of. Dunno 'bout that.
Any hoo, I figgered that somebody out there is bound to have run upon the same problem (maybe with .58 rifles) and come up with something.