Leverevolution tricky stuff?

[flintlocke]

In a moment of impulse buying I picked up a pound of LVR without doing any reading, with the intent to test it in an 1893 Marlin, circa 1920, smokeless steel, tight crisp lockup in .32-40. Cruising Hodgdon's online reloading resource, I am shocked to discover that there is apparently something about this powder that makes it useable in a very narrow range of pressures or case shapes. Further reading in Cast Boolits archives indicates this is not anybody's favorite for much of anything. Yes, significant velocity increases with jacketed as bally-hooed, with sensible pressures. But Hodgdon lists it in the .30-30 and not in the .32 Win Spcl.....really? Burning rate seems to be well bracketed in several different burning rate charts so it's not like some of the old surplus powders that were listed several notches apart on the charts. But yet, Hodgdon is being very cautious in listing this powder for use in a variety of applications. One wonders whether chemical engineers and ballisticians are making the decisions at Hodgdon....or lawyers. I seek your opinions and experience gentlemen. Flintlocke

[wrench man]

I called Hodgdon about it's use in the 356 Winchester, it was a waste of ten minutes of my life!
So far I've only used it in the 30-30, I like it, it WILL find it's way into my 356 Win, my 32 WS may see it's use too?, I have no doubt that the applications will expand.

[flintlocke]

Wrench man, I like your spirit of 'can do' and would like to know how it turns out. But, I can't help but think there is something weird about this powder, Hodgdon is VERY cautious. Look at the other powders they have marketed in the last few years that they have promoted as useful in many calibers. CFE223, CFE Pistol, Benchmark, 8208XBR and so on...lots of data, lots of calibers. Then of course we have the mysterious recall of IMR4007, "spontaneous combustion" issues, makes one wonder. Flintlocke

[MT Gianni]

It is interesting to me that there is recommended loads for the 25-35 and the 30-30 but if you try it in the 7/30 Waters "you'll shoot yer eye out."

[dead dog]

I have using lvr powder in my 32 special for two years now. I use it for my hunting loads. It works best with a full case. I use the RCBS 170 , 2500 lube 50/50 alloy . I just got 8 more pounds.

[flintlocke]

dead dog, did you happen to chronograph your .32 WS load by chance? Do you see unburned powder in the bore after a session? The thing that makes me a nervous Nellie with this, is, when you find it on a burn rate chart, it usually located someplace just below H380, right? Then you look for loads with similar internal case capacities in roughly that burn rate and and there are very few if any. The logic I would normally use to interpolate a safe starting load is seemingly useless with this powder. As an example, why wouldn't LVR be a good powder in the .30-40 Krag, the time honored darling of the lead bullet brotherhood? Surely, if they wanted to market LVR aggressively, we would be a good customer base. But , no 7-30 Waters, no .32WS, no .30-40, no .303 Brit, let alone my poor old .32-40. Will be interesting to hear a few more of the brothers opine.

[Hick]

I contacted Hornady directly to ask for loading data for LVR and they gave me only one data point for my 23 WS-- a fairly high velocity load (more than I wanted). That was in March 2015. The Hornady loading manual includes loads for LVR-- but they have a narrow range of use in 32 WS. For 30-30 their data goes to lower velocities, but only down to 1800 fps. I decided not to use LVR because there is so much other stuff that has wider ranges of use. Unfortunately, looking through my half dozen books I see nothing for LVR in 32-40

[dead dog]

I do not have a chronograph Larry did lot of testing of this powder. Go to the custom search box on top right of this page. I have no unburned powder to speak of. I think they are trying to push their pointed J bullets. In Lees chart it is between bl-c2 and 748,I have not used it for light loads.

[flintlocke]

Well, it's my own fault for not doing the research before I bought the powder, but, admitting that I have to say this is not Hodgdon's greatest achievement. If the sales guys had named this stuff .30-30 Go-Fast it would have been a little closer to reality. Back to the old standbys with predictable results for this country bumpkin. Damn few problems in this world can't be solved with a dozen grains of Unique or a large ball peen hammer.

[leadman]

I did some preliminary testing in my 30-30 win Contender carbine barrel with 150gr bullets. The accuracy was not anything to write home about. I hope to get around to doing more testing before I condemn this powder.

[RPRNY]

I have worked a good deal with LVR in 30-30 and done some experimentation with it in 30-40. In 30-30, my experience is that it's best performance in terms of accuracy and velocity is at very high load density. It would not be my choice as a cast bullet powder.

In 30-40, I did some testing (results published here somewhere) and showed some promise of an additional 200 fps vs other safe Krag loads but didn't want to push it without pressure monitoring equipment. I sent my results to Hodgdon expecting a "why don't you leave this sort of thing to the professionals" response. Instead, radio silence. It's a pity. An extra 150 -200 fps safely with 180 grs ammo would be a nice improvement for people wanting to hunt with the old Krag.

[OnHoPr]

From the threads that I have read on it along with LG's posts. I was thinking about trying it, but I seen a sale on 4007 and acquired that. To me, IMO it SEEMS like a slow magnum powder for rimmed cases for heavier boolits/bullets. Like only using H1000 in a 50% case capacity application with a light bullet in a 300 win mag. The powder wasn't made for it. I don't think it was made for pushing 150 gr boolits in a 30-30 1500 fps. I still like 4007. If you want to push 170 to 200 gr boolits in the 30-30 & 32 spec plus 2000 fps it is a good powder. These newer powders need time to see their attributes. Just look at all the applications that Steel powder is being used for from just putting steel on top of it.

[flintlocke]

OnHoPr, I don't want to come off sounding like a democrat, meddling in your own affairs, but, you were aware of the 4007 recall last year I suppose. 4007 had deterioration issues resulting in possible 'spontaneous combustion'. If I remember correctly, you send them your label, and they send you a credit voucher or something.
But, I digress: your point that this LVR is basically a slow ball powder, not well suited to moderate velocities, is well taken and I concur. Having seen the loads the benchresters used back in the 70's, where a case full of H322 or BL-C2, was the only way to get in the winners circle, it left me with the notion that ball powders operate best near 100 percent case capacity. Hick from Winnemucca also found that to be true. I will try to find RPRNY's post on his experiments with the .30-40 and LVR. A good '98 Krag with the bolt handle bearing on the receiver wall is a much stouter action than the gunwriters will admit and I will feel confident using it to find a home for the LVR rather than the old '93 Marlin. Thanks All, Flintlocke

[OnHoPr]

I was aware of it last year and posted in a couple of threads on it here. I checked my lot numbers and they were not in the recall. I know now that they have discontinued it. I don't know if they will take any lot number for a credit voucher. I do know it is still for sale on a number of websites though ????

[spfd1903]

I have several extra pounds of LVR. I bought a box of Hornady .30-30 FTX when I picked up a lever action at the LGS. Box was $35 but I thought what the heck these FTX streamlined noses will be super accurate. Winchester white box stuff was a little better....accuracy at 50 yards was terrible. Several months later I found FTX bullets and bought 300. No LVR powder to be found for six months. When it showed up I bought 3#. Found the most accurate group with 30.5 (the Hornady round had 34 grains)grains and loaded the 270 bullets I had left. Migrated to Lee C309-170-F that were extremely accurate with H 335 and looking for other applications for LVR.

[flintlocke]

I found RPRNY's post on the .30-40 and LVR. I see NOTHING wrong with his test methodology. Good data. And it hints at my unscientific assertion that this powder is tricky stuff. Look at the S.D.'s, look at the case expansions, velocities. If you graphed these reference points, I think you would have a road map instead of a graph. But, fear nought, I know what happened...the marketing genius's at Hodgdon bought 2 shiploads of Russian surplus powder for cheap, one for 7.62X39 and one 7.62X54R, dumped them together...Voila'...LeveRevolution.
I know, I know..my levity is tedious to others, but if I can't be intelligent, I can certainly be merry.

[Blackwater]

Hodgdon's has said repeatedly that their new "super powders" like LVR and Superformance do their miraculous deeds of providing extra velocity in max. loads ONLY within narrow parameters, which basically translate into expansion ratios - the ratio of bore capacity to powder volume. Therefore, just because it works within narrow ranges for the .30/30 for instance, does NOT mean it'll do the same in other calibers on the same case, like the .32 WS, simply because the expansion ratios, which have a bearing on what powders perform best with any given caliber, are just plain different. As they say in their ads, "It IS 'rocket science'," and rocket science is an exacting field, in which if you change one parameter, it can affect all other factors proportionately. So just because it works in .30/30 does NOT mean it'll provide similar velocity boosts in other, seemingly similar calibers. It's an exacting powder to be used in a narrow range of applications IF one wants the advantages one can get within its design limitations. Yet, it may well provide normal velocity in other uses, but probably not th eadvanced velocities one can get when used within its design parameters. It's just the way the chemistry of powders works, and it's pretty much a take it or leave it situation. Maybe they'll come out with other powders that work in other calibers, and I'd guess they already have for loading factory ammo. They're just so busy now trying to supply us with the more popular and conventional powders that they probably just don't have the time to create another whole set of designer powders for limited usage ranges. It's really all about what they CAN do, considering the limitations of chemistry and what the market wants and needs most. I have several pounds, but haven't gotten my round tuit yet to try it in my .30/30 and other similar calibers. Will try it in my .35/.303 imp. probably. That may be within its design parameters, but for that one, I'll be looking to get std. vel. at lower pressures to make the brass last longer. All sorts of ways to use powders, and LVR is no exception, and they're ALL limited, but some seem more broadly based as to application than those like LVR and Superformance. It's just the limitation of the chemistry of powders. I've heard that SF and LVR are mixtures of different powders to give a graduated pressure curve, so that velocity can be increased without increasing max. chamber pressures - a pretty neat trick, once used in duplex and triplex loads in bygone days to get "extra velocity" for "free" (or at least without increasing chamber pressure, which in those days was and is questionable today, in our time of much better and more comprehensive pressure measuring equipment.

It may work just fine in calibers other than those data is listed or obtainable for, but it might not give the extra velocity boost it can yield in the calibers it was designed for. Nothing you shoot will be able to notice the difference, however, and it's accuracy that sets loads apart, IMO and in my experience, and if it gives you that, you're good to go.

[RPRNY]

Would be interested to hear impressions of LVR in your 35/303. I have a rifle in 35 Krag and these are very similar, assuming yours is just the 303 necked out to 35 cal, so it would be interesting information.

[35remington]

It is likely a poor 32-40 powder, being vastly slower than most suitable 32-40 propellants. It is listed as being slower than 4320.

I am wondering what "crisp lockup" feels and sounds like? Maybe like a fresh potato chip being eaten?

[flintlocke]

Crisp lockup is defined using the following scientific method: Insert the sample cartridge into the chamber of the subject firearm. Insert an appropriately sized potato chip between the rim and the bolt face, just like you used to check headspace with a soft lead wafer, in olden times. Close the bolt, firmly but with finesse, listening carefully. If you hear the cookie crumble, that is crisp lockup. If not, take the subject firearm to the gunshow, and sell it, obeying all applicable laws, ordinances and executive orders from Kenya.