The Load-13 grains Red Dot

[armexman]

I was there too, only thing I did was convinced a guy named Mike to buy a K-31. Before I forget bought a Scope and Mount for a M-44 to shoot cast with THE LOAD, namely the 30 HBC.

[mike in co]

I was there too, only thing I did was convinced a guy named Mike to buy a K-31. Before I forget bought a Scope and Mount for a M-44 to shoot cast with THE LOAD, namely the 30 HBC.

yes..but it wasnt me....you would have known me...i had my CAST BOOLIT shirt on!

[jpb]

13gr of Red Dot in my .375 H&H Mag gives 1290fps with a 255gr cast bullet, 16gr gives 1432fps.

I also use it in my .358 Norma Mag and my 7mm Rem Mag (both with cast and "the other kind" of bullets ,but I can't find my chronograph results.

It is a real hoot to use the .375 H&H for plinking with this load! With the right light you can see the bullets flying to the target.

John

[gandog56]

I've used 13 grains of Red Dot and a 150 grain powder coated gas checked cast .313" sized bullet for 7.62X54R Mosin Nagants as a shoulder saver load. It 50 yards the were hitting about 1 and 1/2" lower than my regular smokeless H4895 150 grain jacketed loads. I don't have a chrony so I can't tell you what speed they were going. But after shooting a hundred rounds of my regular stuff, my shoulder agreed it liked them!

[Geezer in NH]

Follow the advise

By C.E. (Ed) Harris, Revised 2-16-94
Red Dot is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-06 size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely."The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:
1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.
2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.
3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.
4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).
Gas-checked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plain-based ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.
"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-06, 8x57 and .45-70.
"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever hand-loading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.
Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!
The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-06, you get (from a 24" sporter barrel) about 1450 fps with a 200gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170gr, or 1600 with a 150gr cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150fps less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.
My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. Of .22 backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheel-weights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The Load" drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion, but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately.
The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. The 85gr or 100gr Hornady or 90gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100gr .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild, but destructive varmint loads at 1600 fps from a .308 or '06.
If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110gr .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten-inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian and .303 British.
The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.). Substituting 13 grs. Of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6 cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater
savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.
Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.
Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!
You can safely increase these charges up to 2 grains as needed to get best accuracy, but they will lead above 1300 fps unless gas-checked. Some individual rifles with smooth barrels shoot quite well up to 7 or 7.5 gr of these powders, but best accuracy is usually obtained when velocities are kept subsonic. I generally look for a velocity of 1080 +/- 30 fps These loads will usually shoot 2-1/2" to 3" groups at 100 yards. The minimum safe load which will always exit the barrel for indoor gallery work is about 4 grs. of the above powders.
More caution is required when assembling subsonic loads with jacketed bullets, because there is some risk of the bullet becoming lodged in the bore at near-subsonic velocities. You should not attempt to use less than 6 grs. of the above pistol or shotgun powders when loading jacketed bullets unless you check the bore after every shot and keep your hammer and ramrod handy!

[MtGun44]

zombie thread rises from the grave.

Good info.

[MaryB]

Works well in the mosin nagant! I am using a 160 grain tumble lube boolit. Really easy on the shoulder and I plan on using it for a hunting load in my Type 53 on the archangel stock

[sav300]

MaryB,A question about the Archangel stock on your nagant.Will the Archangel fit a finnish nagant?
Have seen the odd one for sale down here (Aus).
My load for the fin is 21.5 ADI 2207 or 4198 and a NOE 314229 sized to 314.
Thanks

[groovy mike]

there's only one way to find out as each rifle is unique. :-d -jdl

^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^

[bedbugbilly]

I can't speak as to how well "the load" would would in your rifles but I will add my 2 cents worth. I've been working with a 1905 Danzig GEW98. I read all about "the load" but where I shoot, I'm limited to a max of around 50 yards. Before it got too cold to shoot, I wanted some "cat sneeze" loads for the 50 yards. I'm using a plain base, 130ish FN boolit from a NOE mold. They drop at .325 and my Mauser slugs out at .323. I started low - my best load so far is 7.00 gr. of Red Dot. I get a tight group of about 1 1/2" at 50 yards but about 2" below bullseye. My military sights are set on the lowest position.

When I start working with it again, I'm going to bump up the loads .5 gr. at a time to see if I can raise the POI. I have tried Unique but it just doesn't seem to do as well as the Red Dot.

My point is . . . play with your charges and see what happens. Try starting lower and working up and you may find the sweet spot for the range/boolit you are shooting that may well be below "the load". Every rifle is going to be different.

I tried the powders I had on hand (my pistol powders) including Bulls Eye, Red Dot and Unique. As I said, the Red Dot worked the best and I was pleasantly surprised at the results. Now for the "fine tuning". Once I get the 50 yards down, I'll find a place on the farm that I can extend it out to 100 yards and I'm sure it will take more oomph but I'm questioning if it will be anywhere near "then load".

Now I'm looking for a decent 30-06 and 30-30 as this is way too much fun.

[rsrocket1]

With all due respects to Zombie threading, I've had a ton of fun working up/down load with cast boolits for my 788 in .308 using 113, 170 and 200g boolits both gas checked and unchecked. My fastest worked up velocity has been 2400 fps with the 170g and the slowest was 1000 fps (subsonic) with the 200g. Both are close to ragged hole accurate @ 50 yards. I am in the process of doing the same with 185g boolits for my Mosin Nagant. It is a lot of fun and highly addicting.

For the 788, the groups move around as the MV changes so the challenge is to find the load that will result in the same POI as the other weight boolits. That way all loads will not require readjusting the scope.

For the 91/30, it shoots better than I can see at 50 yards with the open sights so the load development was pretty quick.

[MaryB]

Nothing in the manual saying it won't... I don't think there were any stock changes on the finn MN's so it should work

MaryB,A question about the Archangel stock on your nagant.Will the Archangel fit a finnish nagant?
Have seen the odd one for sale down here (Aus).
My load for the fin is 21.5 ADI 2207 or 4198 and a NOE 314229 sized to 314.
Thanks

[scottfire1957]

Nothing in the manual saying it won't... I don't think there were any stock changes on the finn MN's so it should work

Finn Mosins were either captured Russian Mosins or copies of Russian Mosins, but better.

[groovy mike]

13gr of Red Dot in my .375 H&H Mag gives 1290fps with a 255gr cast bullet, 16gr gives 1432fps.

I also use it in my .358 Norma Mag and my 7mm Rem Mag (both with cast and "the other kind" of bullets ,but I can't find my chronograph results.

It is a real hoot to use the .375 H&H for plinking with this load! With the right light you can see the bullets flying to the target.

John

John - my 375 H&H plinker load is the 255 cast over 15 grains of Red Dot and a compressed cotton ball - it is amazingly consistent right at 1450 fps. Do you use a wad or filler of any kind? If not any trouble with ignition? I've never tried it without a wad.

[Winger Ed.]

Sure glad I found this old thread.

Now I won't have to re-invent the wheel so-to-speak!

I've got a couple pounds of Red Dot left over from my shot gun days, and was looking for something to do with it
with my favorite old Lyman 311644 mold to use in .30-06 or .308.

[Catch22]

I've not loaded any yet, but have plans to do so for several of my 30-caliber milsurps so the kids can shoot them and I can do some plinking out in the back yard.

I've been really curious to give it a try in my 1889 Schimdt-Rubin's. If anyone has any experience in that regard, I'd love to hear it.

[Outpost75]

In the older pre-1898 rifles such as the Krag, Long Lee Enfields, 1889 Schimdt-Rubins, Italian Vetterlis, etc. I would work in the range of 7 to 10 grains of Red Dot with gaschecked bullets and 6-8 grains with plainbased. In any Cowboy dual-purpose rifle-revolver calibers which start with a "4" 6 grains is a good load with a standard-weight bullet for the caliber.

[Reverend Al]

So far I've been using the other version of "The Load" (16.0 grains of 2400) with good results in my 1927 vintage '03 Springfield, but I also have 500 190 grain cast bullets (w/ gas checks) sitting on the bench just waiting to be loaded and I also have a brand new 8 pounder of Red Dot so I guess I'd better try "The Load" version 2.0 ...

[Winger Ed.]

If anyone has any experience in that regard, I'd love to hear it.

I'd heard about it, and yesterday I chased around with a search engine for:

'C. E. Harris The Load'

'Red Dot powder rifle loads'

'The Load'

After over a hour of reading old forum archives-- including this thread, bunches of articles,
and not seeing anything negative about it..... I finally had to get up.

[gwpercle]

Use a gas check on the bullet , no filler is required and Red Dot is not particularly powder position sensitive , "The Load" will usually get good results right off the bat .
I shoot at 50 yards , 303 British Enfield No.4 MKI, Lee C312-185-1R , 13 grs. Red Dot and with my 70 year old eyes and the military sights (from the bench) can manage 1 1/4 " , 10 shot groups at 50 yards... very pleasing .
Gary