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Thread: Indoor range vs outdoor range or just field to shoot

  1. #21
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    The indoor range is club owned. We shoot rimfire all year long, every Monday. Centerfire pistol and low velocity rifle are allowed. Outdoor range is 3 miles from the house. It's small town, rural area with few rules, but no steel targets. The firing line is not the best layout but it works for us. Seldom crowded.
    This winter we will be shooting rimfire, indoors in the back room of the local gunshop. Set a target on the floor and shoot away. This is position shooting for record by a few fat old curmudgeons.
    It works for us and I don't have to drive 60 miles to the Cities to get to a commercial indoor range.

    I can be thankful for what I have.

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  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    i prefer outside, shoot indoors a few times a year when it is to miserable cold and windy outside

  3. #23
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    1. I live in a warm climate where the weather is pretty good. Well, most of us have webbed feet from all the rain we usually get. 2. I belong to a gun club that is large (6 ranges from 600 yds to shotgun with trap house) with many members. However, most of the time its not crowded. Also, the majority of members (99%) are very respectful, helpful and considerate. They also practice range/gun safety at all times. 3. Our range safety officers are helpful, not little tyrants. Only time I've been in an indoor range was in the military. It was okay, but not very realistic.
    Last edited by gbrown; 10-14-2020 at 08:41 PM.
    One of my father's favorite statements: "If I say a chicken dips snuff, look under his wing for the snuffbox" How I was raised, who I am.

  4. #24
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    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    Scottsdale Gun Club has to be the nicest indoor range I've been in. 4 lanes to a pod, 2" Plexi between lanes, HEPA filtered and Air Conditioned. Sign in was easy, price was comparable to other indoor ranges and the staff is very professional. If you know what you are doing you won't hear a word but they are very much on top errant shooters. Oh, and you can shoot just about anything.

    All indoor ranges are very expensive if you shoot any of the hardware.

    Last time I was at the Scottsdale Gun Club there was an M134D on a tripod in the lobby.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  5. #25
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    contender1's Avatar
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    My observations.
    Folks who live in rural areas,, where access to open lands or open public places w/o any rules, restrictions, fees, or range safety officers almost always prefer that & hate any indoor range. They have never had restrictions upon them in how they enjoy the sport.

    Indoor ranges,, are normally located in places with higher population densities, where open casual shooting is non-existent, or hard to get to. I know a fine handgun hunter from New Jersey who drives almost an hour one way just to be able to shoot a firearm. (And he has taken a Cape Buffalo with a handgun,, along with MANY heads of game.) He has lamented how hard it is to find ANY place to shoot what so-ever. That kind of problem exists for many people,, so an indoor range is their only option.

    Indoor ranges,, Outdoor ranges,, open public places,, informal friends private properties, etc all have their pluses & minuses.

    One thing NOT mentioned above in any of the comments where dislike of a particular type of range is discussed is something we all dislike,, but must accept in todays world.
    LIABILITY!!!!!!!!

    ANY commercial range in any form is faced with legal liability,, AND the insurance it MUST have. That costs money. Then you must have it staffed. That costs money. Staff must be trained. That costs money. Consider this; You may be a safe shooter. You go to a range,, stumble & fall, and accidentally shoot & kill yourself. You may be the safest & best person there. You may have a gentlemans agreement with the range owner. BUT,, your family will see MONEY,, in a LAWSUIT,,, and the range owner will lose.
    So,, any gun club,, private membership range,, indoor range etc ALL face these obstacles to staying open.
    And that does NOT take into account the many other hurdles they face.
    Noise complaints.
    Zoning restrictions.
    Potential lawsuits by neighbors.
    UNSAFE gun handlers.
    Politics.
    Anti-gun media.

    These are but a few things they face daily.
    I see comments about the fees costing too much at some ranges,, or how they won't let a shooter pick up dropped brass. To that,, I say this; "Go & try to open a gun range yourself,, and operate it as a business & see what it costs."
    A quality indoor gun range,, with the properly built facility,, will cost well over 1 million dollars now,, BEFORE you open. And that's not a big facility.
    Or, try & build a public gun range in any zoned area. Once the media hears about it,, you will find you have a LOT of enemies you never knew existed.


    How do I know all these things?

    I own a private gun range,, that hosts USPSA Competition monthly.

    Luckily,, I built my place back in 1980-1981. I'm grandfathered in, shielded by many new laws & restrictions. I'm also on a portion of my County that has very few zoning restrictions. BUT,, I'm also VERY close to a popular tourist destination,, and as such,, expensive developments in my area. As such,, I've had to push back against some folks who came in AFTER I was built & established who wanted to shut me down. I've also assisted another person who TRIED to open a gun range,, and was shut down because a upscale development well over 1/2 mile away forced it. And it was all in a legal area,, but the County Commission refused to allow it.

    So,, complain about one type of range or another. Complain about the fees,,, or the staff who demand safety. Refuse to accept the fact that CHANGE can & will often come, causing the loss of your favorite place to shoot.

    I get a LOT of inquiries by people LOOKING for a place to shoot. I get people who show up, w/o contacting me,, and EXPECT to be able to shoot. Almost to the point of demanding it. I have had trespassers shoot on my place when I wasn't around.
    I've had my targets, props, steel, sheds, etc DAMAGED by such people. These expenses come out of my pocket.

    And you know the sad part?

    I envisioned building my range as a place for me & my friends & such to have a place to enjoy when I was building it. Oh,, was I young & naive. And the things I have mentioned above,, are not all I've experienced,, or had to deal with in the last 40 years of owning a gun range. And yes,, I have seen a person kill themselves accidentally at a member only gun range,, on a day before a major USPSA match. And I have seen gun ranges closed,, for one reason or another.

    So,, ENJOY shooting in whatever venue you can. Support those who try & give all shooters a place to shoot. And if you are lucky enough to have a place of your own,, ask yourself this question; "If my best buddy Joe has an accident,, will he or his family sue me & can I afford it?"
    I had to accept the fact of todays liability & litigious society.

    Maybe now the fees charged by some ranges isn't as expensive as one may think. What would you pay for a place to shoot if you didn't have any options?
    My friend in New Jersey faces that.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have my own range in the middle of my wife section of land,it has a clay butte about 50 ' high I use for a backstop. I am just finishing the lean too I built for shade. When I get the cement floor in it I will install the shooting bench. It is a great place to shoot better than any indoor range.

  7. #27
    Boolit Bub monkey wrangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Paso View Post
    Scottsdale Gun Club has to be the nicest indoor range I've been in. 4 lanes to a pod, 2" Plexi between lanes, HEPA filtered and Air Conditioned. Sign in was easy, price was comparable to other indoor ranges and the staff is very professional. If you know what you are doing you won't hear a word but they are very much on top errant shooters. Oh, and you can shoot just about anything.

    All indoor ranges are very expensive if you shoot any of the hardware.

    Last time I was at the Scottsdale Gun Club there was an M134D on a tripod in the lobby.

    Ben Avery is about hour and a half from me I have never shot there. They do have that new 1000 yard range but you have to rent it as a group to shoot there.

    Rio Salado is where I have shot in the past and wont go back again the desert is way better even if its 125 degrees.

    Scottsdale gun club is on my list to check out. I believe you can rent full auto firearms to use in the ranges and that might just be a birthday trip one year besides I believe its just down the road from Dillon.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne


  8. #28
    Boolit Bub monkey wrangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contender1 View Post
    My observations.
    Folks who live in rural areas,, where access to open lands or open public places w/o any rules, restrictions, fees, or range safety officers almost always prefer that & hate any indoor range. They have never had restrictions upon them in how they enjoy the sport.

    Indoor ranges,, are normally located in places with higher population densities, where open casual shooting is non-existent, or hard to get to. I know a fine handgun hunter from New Jersey who drives almost an hour one way just to be able to shoot a firearm. (And he has taken a Cape Buffalo with a handgun,, along with MANY heads of game.) He has lamented how hard it is to find ANY place to shoot what so-ever. That kind of problem exists for many people,, so an indoor range is their only option.

    Indoor ranges,, Outdoor ranges,, open public places,, informal friends private properties, etc all have their pluses & minuses.

    One thing NOT mentioned above in any of the comments where dislike of a particular type of range is discussed is something we all dislike,, but must accept in todays world.
    LIABILITY!!!!!!!!

    ANY commercial range in any form is faced with legal liability,, AND the insurance it MUST have. That costs money. Then you must have it staffed. That costs money. Staff must be trained. That costs money. Consider this; You may be a safe shooter. You go to a range,, stumble & fall, and accidentally shoot & kill yourself. You may be the safest & best person there. You may have a gentlemans agreement with the range owner. BUT,, your family will see MONEY,, in a LAWSUIT,,, and the range owner will lose.
    So,, any gun club,, private membership range,, indoor range etc ALL face these obstacles to staying open.
    And that does NOT take into account the many other hurdles they face.
    Noise complaints.
    Zoning restrictions.
    Potential lawsuits by neighbors.
    UNSAFE gun handlers.
    Politics.
    Anti-gun media.

    These are but a few things they face daily.
    I see comments about the fees costing too much at some ranges,, or how they won't let a shooter pick up dropped brass. To that,, I say this; "Go & try to open a gun range yourself,, and operate it as a business & see what it costs."
    A quality indoor gun range,, with the properly built facility,, will cost well over 1 million dollars now,, BEFORE you open. And that's not a big facility.
    Or, try & build a public gun range in any zoned area. Once the media hears about it,, you will find you have a LOT of enemies you never knew existed.


    How do I know all these things?

    I own a private gun range,, that hosts USPSA Competition monthly.

    Luckily,, I built my place back in 1980-1981. I'm grandfathered in, shielded by many new laws & restrictions. I'm also on a portion of my County that has very few zoning restrictions. BUT,, I'm also VERY close to a popular tourist destination,, and as such,, expensive developments in my area. As such,, I've had to push back against some folks who came in AFTER I was built & established who wanted to shut me down. I've also assisted another person who TRIED to open a gun range,, and was shut down because a upscale development well over 1/2 mile away forced it. And it was all in a legal area,, but the County Commission refused to allow it.

    So,, complain about one type of range or another. Complain about the fees,,, or the staff who demand safety. Refuse to accept the fact that CHANGE can & will often come, causing the loss of your favorite place to shoot.

    I get a LOT of inquiries by people LOOKING for a place to shoot. I get people who show up, w/o contacting me,, and EXPECT to be able to shoot. Almost to the point of demanding it. I have had trespassers shoot on my place when I wasn't around.
    I've had my targets, props, steel, sheds, etc DAMAGED by such people. These expenses come out of my pocket.

    And you know the sad part?

    I envisioned building my range as a place for me & my friends & such to have a place to enjoy when I was building it. Oh,, was I young & naive. And the things I have mentioned above,, are not all I've experienced,, or had to deal with in the last 40 years of owning a gun range. And yes,, I have seen a person kill themselves accidentally at a member only gun range,, on a day before a major USPSA match. And I have seen gun ranges closed,, for one reason or another.

    So,, ENJOY shooting in whatever venue you can. Support those who try & give all shooters a place to shoot. And if you are lucky enough to have a place of your own,, ask yourself this question; "If my best buddy Joe has an accident,, will he or his family sue me & can I afford it?"
    I had to accept the fact of todays liability & litigious society.

    Maybe now the fees charged by some ranges isn't as expensive as one may think. What would you pay for a place to shoot if you didn't have any options?
    My friend in New Jersey faces that.
    Yes I understand the whole liability issue with a sport that has higher odds of someone getting hurt or dead. There are laws in my state that protect the horse people from such liability risk. Race tracks are protected as well. Firearms are unfairly treated in a whole different light from top to bottom by every law ever made. But without firearms there would be no USA in so many ways. I would love to see the libitards talk there way out of getting eaten by a bear or mountain lion. Maybe they could talk a enemy soldier out of shooting them. I have been oversees and seen firsthand some of the disgusting things humans can do to each other. They can give peace a chance, I will stand back here and cover them in case it does not work out like their Utopian dream.

    What if Ford / Chevy got sued for people getting hit by drunk drivers? There is technology out there called ignition interlocks that wont let you start your car if you have been drinking. But car manufactures are not required to punish everyone because of a couple stupid people. But Remington can be sued into bankruptcy because of Sandy Hook.

    I am glad you built your own range I hope you enjoyed it before it became a hassle. Its a sad day in history that the silent majority is being stripped of there second amendment right. It is a death by a thousand cuts nothing very big at one time just little cuts.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne


  9. #29
    Boolit Master
    dale2242's Avatar
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    I have never shot at an indoor range nor do I plan to.
    I shot on outdoor ranges when I was shooting competitively, Handgun silhouette, trap, and action pistol.
    It is an hour drive to the closest outdoor range with solid concrete benches. I will drive there when I want to do some serious load development.
    Our county is 85% government timber lands so I do most of my shooting in landings with backstop or rock pits.
    You don`t have to deal with other people this way.
    I built a pretty solid portable shooting bench and a decent target holder.
    The only bummer is the rainy weather in the winter.
    We get plenty of it here in SW Oregon.

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I'm fortunate now that I can shoot on my own place, which has the added benefit of being able to recover lead one day, if I run low and live long enough. No one shoots on it except me and maybe my sons now and then.

    I still keep a membership in a good range which I RSO for now and then, but it's closed fr a year for rennovation and is about an hour drive from me. Still nice to have it as a social outlet to talk to other shooters.

    Also a member of a shotgun range now and having a lot of fun and it's close. I have a clay bird thrower and could do some of that out here, but would rather not have the broken clays and lead shot all over my place here, so I'll keep using their trap range.

    Besides the physical limitations and noise on indoor ranges, all the ones I've been to seem extremly attractive to the tacticool mall ninja types who I dislike sharing a range with.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contender1 View Post
    My observations.
    Folks who live in rural areas,, where access to open lands or open public places w/o any rules, restrictions, fees, or range safety officers almost always prefer that & hate any indoor range. They have never had restrictions upon them in how they enjoy the sport.

    Indoor ranges,, are normally located in places with higher population densities, where open casual shooting is non-existent, or hard to get to. I know a fine handgun hunter from New Jersey who drives almost an hour one way just to be able to shoot a firearm. (And he has taken a Cape Buffalo with a handgun,, along with MANY heads of game.) He has lamented how hard it is to find ANY place to shoot what so-ever. That kind of problem exists for many people,, so an indoor range is their only option.

    Indoor ranges,, Outdoor ranges,, open public places,, informal friends private properties, etc all have their pluses & minuses.

    One thing NOT mentioned above in any of the comments where dislike of a particular type of range is discussed is something we all dislike,, but must accept in todays world.
    LIABILITY!!!!!!!!

    ANY commercial range in any form is faced with legal liability,, AND the insurance it MUST have. That costs money. Then you must have it staffed. That costs money. Staff must be trained. That costs money. Consider this; You may be a safe shooter. You go to a range,, stumble & fall, and accidentally shoot & kill yourself. You may be the safest & best person there. You may have a gentlemans agreement with the range owner. BUT,, your family will see MONEY,, in a LAWSUIT,,, and the range owner will lose.
    So,, any gun club,, private membership range,, indoor range etc ALL face these obstacles to staying open.
    And that does NOT take into account the many other hurdles they face.
    Noise complaints.
    Zoning restrictions.
    Potential lawsuits by neighbors.
    UNSAFE gun handlers.
    Politics.
    Anti-gun media.

    These are but a few things they face daily.
    I see comments about the fees costing too much at some ranges,, or how they won't let a shooter pick up dropped brass. To that,, I say this; "Go & try to open a gun range yourself,, and operate it as a business & see what it costs."
    A quality indoor gun range,, with the properly built facility,, will cost well over 1 million dollars now,, BEFORE you open. And that's not a big facility.
    Or, try & build a public gun range in any zoned area. Once the media hears about it,, you will find you have a LOT of enemies you never knew existed.


    How do I know all these things?

    I own a private gun range,, that hosts USPSA Competition monthly.

    Luckily,, I built my place back in 1980-1981. I'm grandfathered in, shielded by many new laws & restrictions. I'm also on a portion of my County that has very few zoning restrictions. BUT,, I'm also VERY close to a popular tourist destination,, and as such,, expensive developments in my area. As such,, I've had to push back against some folks who came in AFTER I was built & established who wanted to shut me down. I've also assisted another person who TRIED to open a gun range,, and was shut down because a upscale development well over 1/2 mile away forced it. And it was all in a legal area,, but the County Commission refused to allow it.

    So,, complain about one type of range or another. Complain about the fees,,, or the staff who demand safety. Refuse to accept the fact that CHANGE can & will often come, causing the loss of your favorite place to shoot.

    I get a LOT of inquiries by people LOOKING for a place to shoot. I get people who show up, w/o contacting me,, and EXPECT to be able to shoot. Almost to the point of demanding it. I have had trespassers shoot on my place when I wasn't around.
    I've had my targets, props, steel, sheds, etc DAMAGED by such people. These expenses come out of my pocket.

    And you know the sad part?

    I envisioned building my range as a place for me & my friends & such to have a place to enjoy when I was building it. Oh,, was I young & naive. And the things I have mentioned above,, are not all I've experienced,, or had to deal with in the last 40 years of owning a gun range. And yes,, I have seen a person kill themselves accidentally at a member only gun range,, on a day before a major USPSA match. And I have seen gun ranges closed,, for one reason or another.

    So,, ENJOY shooting in whatever venue you can. Support those who try & give all shooters a place to shoot. And if you are lucky enough to have a place of your own,, ask yourself this question; "If my best buddy Joe has an accident,, will he or his family sue me & can I afford it?"
    I had to accept the fact of todays liability & litigious society.

    Maybe now the fees charged by some ranges isn't as expensive as one may think. What would you pay for a place to shoot if you didn't have any options?
    My friend in New Jersey faces that.
    My hate for indoor ranges isn't due to fees or the crowd or regulations it's due to the noise factor in the ones we have in my area . It's a handgun range max 25 yds targets . About all I can stand or being next to is lower power target loads when someone in the next stall drops the hammer on a full power 357 or 44 we'll its almost painful with muffs on . Maybe it's a poor acoustic design they have I don't know ? But it's not enjoyable at all . Within the last year they upgraded their backstops and now allow short barreled rifles/AR pistols ! Wow it's even worse .
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy


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    I used both depending on what I am shooting. This is Florida summer 11 months of the year and then there's January. If you have a home range make sure you have plenty of Insurance.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master



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    I can and do shoot in back of my house. However, I belong to a club with an indoor range. I shoot much more there because at the same time, I can hang out with friends who speak the gun language. The advantage of an indoor range is that the conditions are always constant. Same amount of light and meteorological conditions. I am in the process of creating an outdoor range where people can shoot longer distances. I hope for all of us concerned that it pans out.

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy
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    For bench work, out to 300 yards.....obviously outdoors! I have to travel 40 yards out of my back door to my bench! I hope to soon put a roof over the bench for those hot sunny days, or the “once in a Blue Moon” rain or snow! Will likely add a roll-up curtain/blind on the west side for that setting sun glare issue!

    If we want to shoot beyond 300 yards.....we have to drive a mile or two! memtb

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
    contender1's Avatar
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    RU Shooter,, a very valid complaint about indoor ranges. Noise. But noise is also a factor to neighbors of an outdoor range of withing a mile or two of them.

    Sadly,, it's very expensive to build an indoor range to where the noise level is not a factor somewhat. Especially when it's a popular range & occupied a lot. I always wear double hearing protection when using an indoor range.

    Something else an indoor range has to deal with is the necessity of an air filtration system. Good ones are NOT cheap,, and require serious, regular maintenance. Throw in the good air system, that pulls the gunsmoke, lead dust etc away from the shooters,, in an area where it's cold or hot outside,, and you need a form of A/C or Heat to make the shooters "comfortable." Talk about a hard thing to do,,,, !!!! Pulling the gunsmoke etc away,, also pulls the comfort level.
    Again,, an expense not noticed by the average person.


    We do enjoy my range,, & I often get requests from friends & others to use my range. I'm NOT a hard **** & deny everybody,, but I do have restrictions.
    I MUST be there as Safety RO.
    My insurance requires that.
    I have everybody sign a waiver, releasing me of liability.
    The USPSA sanctioned Level I matches are open to those who wish to shoot them,, but again, waivers, as well as all USPSA safety rules, AND my personal range rules are strictly observed.

    Owning a range that allows anybody other than yourself to enjoy comes with a serious responsibility, as well as the liability. Remember,, you may not try to sue me,, but your family might. (And just think of how many shooters have a close family member who does not like firearms!)
    We also hold special events,, and I can add them as a special event rider to my insurance policy. I just had one almost 2 weeks ago. I also use my range as a place to teach handgunning. We have been teaching ladies the NRA WOT program for many years,, as well as private instruction clinics. I have also rented out my range to a few other instructors,, but they must also provide me with current copies of their insurance with my range being covered as well. And the level of their insurance must meet my criteria.

    Many, many people do not have access (easily) to a wide open space,,, unoccupied,, where nobody is around to stop them from enjoying informal shooting of the type they desire. Too bad,, as it would make life a lot easier if it were so.

    But,, even private property,, where you THINK it's fine & safe & all, can actually have issues where someone gets hurt or killed. Several years ago,, a girl was killed in a public amusement park called Carowinds, near Charlotte NC. Apparently some guys target practicing well away from the park, had a bullet go over whatever backstop, arc into Carowinds, and killed the girl.
    NOT good for all gun owners,, who were (again) painted in a bad way by the media.

    ANYTIME you discharge a firearm,, you must know where the bullet will stop, or be willing to face potential legal issues.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master gnostic's Avatar
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    I shoot so much better at indoor ranges because of the lighting. Notice at indoor ranges, the target is bright allowing the sight to be silhouetted. Outdoors, the light falling on the sights doesn't provide as good a sight picture...

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
    toallmy's Avatar
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    I have never walked into a indoor range , or shot at a real outdoor range because - I live in a very rural area . I'm not really interested in driving a couple hours to shoot , that would be very limiting on how often I could enjoy shooting .
    I shoot out to a 100yards with a good solid back stop at the house while being mindful of the neighbors and the wife ( shooters also both wife and neighbors ) .
    I have a retired shooting buddy within 2 miles that has a nice back yard range set up from 25 ft out to 250 yards with a large sand berm + a very pleasant wife that will bring us coffee while we are shooting off of the back deck .
    For longer shooting I'm within 15 minutes of a farm that I keep a bench set up 350 yards from a irrigation pound sand back stop . I can't find a place to go out to a thousand with a good berm but I feel I'm blessed .
    Do what you need to do to get out and shoot - be safe

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

    monadnock#5's Avatar
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    20 years ago or so I was awoken out of a sound sleep by my wife who said that an officer was knocking at the door. This was an afternoon nap on a Sunday prior to working 3rd shift that night. "Well let him in" said I. He was seeking info on who was shooting .22's in the woods behind my house. It quickly became evident that he didn't come looking for info, he came looking for someone to detain for questioning. This in an area with more than 300 ft from occupied structures, the legal standard for hunting and shooting. I'm sure that he recognized the anger that was building and bailed out before I could tell him to be on his way.

    I am more than happy to pay the freight for membership in a local range. I can shoot all year round and don't need an ATV to get there.
    Last edited by monadnock#5; 10-15-2020 at 04:25 PM.
    You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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  19. #39
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    I shoot at a sportsmans club range. We have two benches, no range officers and I rarely see anyone else there from Nov to August. 25, 50, 100, 200 and 300 yard posts with 4x8 sheets of chip board that get replaced when they need it. They recently put in a pistol board where people can shoot at ranges closer than 25 yards. No line just walk as far away as you want. It gets heavy use between Aug and hunting season for people to sight in.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

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BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check