.500 S&W help...

[tinhorn97062]

I’m working with a friend to get some loads worked up for a .500 S&W. He has a few pounds of WSF, that a source a couple years ago told him to buy.

Now here’s the issue: When I go looking for load data for that combination, I cannot find a single thing. So before I tell him the bad news, that he was likely duped and should buy some H110 or something, can anybody weigh in on using WSF in the .500 S&W, and/or point me toward some published load data?

For what it’s worth, the boolit is a Lee 501-440.


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[DougGuy]

The reason you can't find data for that powder and heavy boolit is because WSF burns MUCH too fast for a heavy boolit. At 37, WSF is only slightly slower than Unique 32, and Herco 36, your buddy needs to be in the 60s range, Lilgun, H110, W296, 4227, are 62, 63, 64, and 65 by comparison. The faster burning favorite magnum powder would be Alliant 2400 at 54.

[tinhorn97062]

The reason you can't find data for that powder and heavy boolit is because WSF burns MUCH too fast for a heavy boolit. At 37, WSF is only slightly slower than Unique 32, and Herco 36, your buddy needs to be in the 60s range, Lilgun, H110, W296, 4227, are 62, 63, 64, and 65 by comparison. The faster burning favorite magnum powder would be Alliant 2400 at 54.

Doug, much thanks. Seems like I’ll be needing to tell him that he was duped.

Would WSF be useful with a lighter projectile? Maybe something in the 300gr range? Maybe I’ll try to find a local person to trade powders and just be done with the matter.


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[DougGuy]

If you can find data for a similar powder, Unique, Herco, HS6, AA#5, then you are in the ballpark at least. Whatever the heaviest boolits listed for that caliber are, with those powders, is about what you would need to use with the WSF.

I wouldn't be so hasty to trade away the WSF, I would look for loads in 45 Colt, 44 Special, 45 ACP, and use it for those.

[tinhorn97062]

If you can find data for a similar powder, Unique, Herco, HS6, AA#5, then you are in the ballpark at least. Whatever the heaviest boolits listed for that caliber are, with those powders, is about what you would need to use with the WSF.

I wouldn't be so hasty to trade away the WSF, I would look for loads in 45 Colt, 44 Special, 45 ACP, and use it for those.

Good idea.... .45 is a caliber in hand.

I did find some info on Unique with the heavy boolit. I’ll investigate that a bit more.

I really appreciate the help and the information provided.


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[JimB..]

Friend shoots a 420g fmj (my recollection) with 15g of Unique, says it’s nice.

[Bazoo]

I use WSF in 45 acp. I've been researching the powder for 5 years.

Here is what I've found. It likes to be at a higher load density. It doesn't perform well in cases with larger capacity such as 38 special or 44 special. And it doesn't perform well with lighter bullets. That said, I don't believe it to unsafe, its accuracy by all accounts I've seen in those calibers wasn't satisfactory.

You could use it happily if you deep seated a bullet though I can't suggest how deep.

I have loads worked up in 45 acp using the Lee TL452-230-2R and TL452-230-TC if you would like it. While the Lyman 4th edition shows the latter bullet with WSF, the starting load was too warm and I backed it off. My TC bullet weighs 238 out of wheel weights.

[DougGuy]

I googled and got a few hits from the Glock 9mm guys, apparently they like WST for lighter faster loads, and WSF is used in heavier boolits for max power loads where WST would be unsafe because it burns too fast. Also, some of the other comments I read said something to the same effect that Bazoo is saying, it works well in 45 ACP for max loads, I would suspect it would work well in 45 Colt and 44 Special for tier 2 +P loads with 250gr boolits, where it has a relatively high load density much like H110/W296.

The problem with using faster powders with heavier boolits is that you can't make magnum velocities before you run out of headroom and you are maxed out on pressure, and quite often the heavies won't get enough spin to stabilize them at the lesser velocities.

[tinhorn97062]

I use WSF in 45 acp. I've been researching the powder for 5 years.

Here is what I've found. It likes to be at a higher load density. It doesn't perform well in cases with larger capacity such as 38 special or 44 special. And it doesn't perform well with lighter bullets. That said, I don't believe it to unsafe, its accuracy by all accounts I've seen in those calibers wasn't satisfactory.

You could use it happily if you deep seated a bullet though I can't suggest how deep.

I have loads worked up in 45 acp using the Lee TL452-230-2R and TL452-230-TC if you would like it. While the Lyman 4th edition shows the latter bullet with WSF, the starting load was too warm and I backed it off. My TC bullet weighs 238 out of wheel weights.

I’d be interested in those loads, Bazoo. I don’t own either of those molds, but maybe I can snag a few from somebody to try out. Shoot me a PM, if you want.

I really appreciate all of the information and advice, and welcome more feedback if anybody has it.


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[tinhorn97062]

I googled and got a few hits from the Glock 9mm guys, apparently they like WST for lighter faster loads, and WSF is used in heavier boolits for max power loads where WST would be unsafe because it burns too fast. Also, some of the other comments I read said something to the same effect that Bazoo is saying, it works well in 45 ACP for max loads, I would suspect it would work well in 45 Colt and 44 Special for tier 2 +P loads with 250gr boolits, where it has a relatively high load density much like H110/W296.

The problem with using faster powders with heavier boolits is that you can't make magnum velocities before you run out of headroom and you are maxed out on pressure, and quite often the heavies won't get enough spin to stabilize them at the lesser velocities.

A few hours ago, I knew nothing about this powder and it’s applications. I feel like I’m starting to get fairly well schooled up. I love this forum.


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[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I worked up a Load of Unique for 385gr RF PB in the 500. I started at 12gr and worked up to 17.5gr.
Unique is pretty friendly with any caliber cast boolit load, and while it is in the burn rate range of WSF, I can't speak if WSF has the similar characteristics that Unique has, to make it CB friendly in the 500...but from what Bazoo states, I surely wouldn't recommend it for your friend and his the 500.

[Petander]

Shotgun powder for a 500 Magnum? No way.

Get some proper powder for it and stay safe. I use mostly VV N110,case full.

[tinhorn97062]

Shotgun powder for a 500 Magnum? No way.

Get some proper powder for it and stay safe. I use mostly VV N110,case full.

I had the same thought when I initially started looking into this. Like I said, I don’t have any experience with this powder and certainly won’t load anything for him when there’s no published data.


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[Bazoo]

Obviously you're not going to make full charge 500 S&W ammo with WSF. But when I heard the combo I immediately thought "they are trying to download the 500 with a medium powder".

[John Ross]

WSF is the wrong powder for the .500 Smith & Wesson.

If you'll tell me what power level he would like to get with the 440 grain lead bullet, I can give you some suggested loads with appropriate powders.

If you're not sure of the ballistics he'd like to achieve, give me an idea of what other handguns he has that he enjoys shooting. This will give me an idea as to what recoil level might be appropriate.

As an example, you might say something like "he wants recoil similar to a standard Redhawk in .44 Magnum with loads that are a little less punishing than standard factory .44 magnum ammunition," or "loads that are as pleasant to shoot as standard .38 Special ammunition in a 4" K-frame Smith & Wesson."

Many purchasers of the .500 have never owned a handgun with anywhere near the recoil, and they end up offering the gun for sale after less than 10 rounds of factory ammo have been put through it.

If he wants to get used to the gun and avoid this happening, get him to buy some Trail Boss powder and use any of the published loading data for it.

[Gunslinger1911]

Listen to John guys ! He knows his stuff.
Give him power level you want, bullet weight, base to crimp groove length and powder you like. He'll hook you up.

John, thanks for the "80%" loads with RL7 - worked great !

[Petander]

This NOE bullet is very nice for moderate loads,too. I started with that same 440 Lee OP mentioned in 2003, then later got an LBT 420. Now almost 20 years older I have realised that our bodies do break (eg. rotator cuff here,too much too heavy bows... bows are over for me... and a "recoil tooth" missing from my right jaw,all that bench stuff with big guns for decades...)

So I shoot that 325 a lot now. I'm using Redding Profile Crimp Die,works nice and smooth. I do shoot and like a 600 Mihec,too but I won't shoot dozens of them at once. I like my wrists and for some unknown reason they are still fine.

[DougGuy]

There is a LOT of physics involved with this caliber, and this thread. There are a few hard limitations that one must work within to develop loads that work.

Here are some of the more important ones:

Heavy boolits:

You CANNOT make magnum velocities with fast burning powders. Not only do you run into the pressure ceiling quite rapidly, but this means for one, that you won't push the heavies fast enough to impart enough spin to stabilize them.

You won't get the accuracy you hope for because the boolit is not stabilized in flight. Read the above statement.

Recoil:

The heavier the boolit, OR the harder you drive it, the greater the felt recoil. There is no trade off on this one. It comes down to energy. The more energy you push out the muzzle, the more the gun will push back in your hands. Every action creates an equal but opposite reaction. 6th grade physics.

So, if you decide how much recoil will be your max, you have choices of power levels that will result in measurable amounts of recoil, arrived at by loads that are carefully arrived at by balancing boolit weight and powder charge, and to some extent, burn rate.

If you decide how much velocity you need, then recoil cannot enter the equation, you get whatever recoil you get once you achieve the velocity you hope for.

Powder:

If you are powder choice impaired, and you simply must use a certain powder, then there will be a range of boolit weights that will work, and if you still want to shoot heavier boolits, realize that again you are now attempting to work outside the limitations of the powder, and you can go to the top of this post and read the sentence about trying to make magnum velocities again.

The shorter you go in boolit length, the faster the burn rate of the powder can be, because the boolit is lighter, and the lighter boolits will stabilize much better than the heavies at lower velocities. Obviously, these loads will develop less felt recoil at lower velocities.

[tinhorn97062]

WSF is the wrong powder for the .500 Smith & Wesson.

If you'll tell me what power level he would like to get with the 440 grain lead bullet, I can give you some suggested loads with appropriate powders.

If you're not sure of the ballistics he'd like to achieve, give me an idea of what other handguns he has that he enjoys shooting. This will give me an idea as to what recoil level might be appropriate.

As an example, you might say something like "he wants recoil similar to a standard Redhawk in .44 Magnum with loads that are a little less punishing than standard factory .44 magnum ammunition," or "loads that are as pleasant to shoot as standard .38 Special ammunition in a 4" K-frame Smith & Wesson."

Many purchasers of the .500 have never owned a handgun with anywhere near the recoil, and they end up offering the gun for sale after less than 10 rounds of factory ammo have been put through it.

If he wants to get used to the gun and avoid this happening, get him to buy some Trail Boss powder and use any of the published loading data for it.

Hey John, I just saw this.

With the 440gr, he’s looking for this to be a full house loading. He’s not recoil sensitive at all. His EDC is a 10mm loaded hot, as an example.

And on Gunslinger’s advice, this boolit weighs 459gr, and the base to crimp groove is about .530, measured with my caliper.

I talked to him yesterday, and I believe he has a couple pounds of H110 on order. I told him the WSF wasn’t a good choice and he oughta order a proper powder for this beast.

I have Trailboss on hand and may load a few for him, while he waits on the other powder.


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[John Ross]

With a 475 grain bullet at a seating depth of .530" in my 5" tight gap gun, velocities rounded to nearest 10, I got the following results:

30 gr. H110 1160 FPS 30,000 PSI estimated
31 gr. H110 1200 FPS
32 gr. H110 1260 FPS
33 gr. H110 1300 FPS
34 gr. H110 1340 FPS 43,000 PSI estimated
35 gr. H110 1390 FPS
36 gr. H110 1430 FPS
37 gr. H110 1470 FPS 56,000 PSI estimated

I wouldn't go below 30 grains for fear of squibs. 33-34 grains is a nice load.

JR