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Thread: Alliant Reloader 7 .44-40 load

  1. #61
    Boolit Master Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Jack - seein you enjoyed dismembering my last post - maybe you would like another go.
    I wasnt picking on you just hit quote instead of reply - anyway - you missed the point of my post. I get the aim of what is doing here just am honestly curious as to what drives so many guys to take so much trouble to not use black powder - theres a long list of possibilities - most of em we could cross off easily - particularly when we insert the caveat of equal performance - incidentally I like RE7 - used it to good effect in a 375 Big Bore and recently in 32/20 and 357 mag in lever guns.
    Whether your reply was directed at me or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was somewhat condescending. I never missed the point of your reply, I never read anything anywhere in this 3 page (now 4) topic that gave me the inclination that someone was simply trying avoid using black powder. Incidentally when I shot CAS at my local club, I was the only one that used it
    For me......I enjoy black powder, I enjoy replicating history...."been there done that". The key word here is ENJOY! Do what makes you happy and let other people do what makes them happy. One reason I quit CAS was because I was always given a hard time because I did use the stuff.

    OPTIONS! Looking in to what works and what doesnt, it's a hobby. If you are not interested, move on along. If you enjoy reading about black powder and the 44-40, check out this website: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 03-24-2018 at 08:29 AM.

  2. #62
    Boolit Master Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Indian Joe,

    I am sure I probably posted this someone on this forum but........

    "Today's shoot was very promising. I was very pleased with the results. Today I tested Winchester, Magteck and Buffalo Bore factory ammunition as well as a few more handloads. The below photograph is targets 177 thru 182 ALL 100 YARDS. Temp 45deg, cloudy and humid, no wind.

    Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest
    Click image for larger version. 

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    #177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. 975fps with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77
    #178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. 1,055fps with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41
    #179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. 1,436fps, ES 48, 1/34' to 3 3/4" Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP
    #180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. 1,500fps, ES 45, 2" Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI......Not for Winchester 73 type rifles
    #181 - Buffalo Bore 200gr Hard cast/10.gr of something, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI
    #182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. 1,382fps, ES 53, 1 3/4" Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI".......Not for Winchester 73 type rifles

    The first purpose of this session was not to do everything I could to not use black powder. It was to show how neutered modern factory smokeless loads really are. Buffalo Bore factory ammunition is the ONLY factory ammunition that replicates original black powder ballistics of 1,300fps WITH 100 YARD ACCURACY and they have only been manufacturing this ammunition since December 2017.

    The second purpose was to replicate the original 1,500fps "High Velocity" factory smokeless loads of 1903 - 1950 or so, designed for the "Winchester 92'" and Marlin 94' ("not to be used in 73's or pistols"). I achieved both the 1,300fps velocities as well as the HV 1,500fps velocities and both with great accuracy out to 100 yards....the rifle and ammo are much more accurate than I am

    John Kort has already proven the black powder loads by shooting and hitting 7 consecutive targets at 300 meters. https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...-40-300-meters
    We already know what the black powder loads did back in the day and what black powder loads do today. John's original post was also to show that there is a "rifle powder" out there that does work well in all firearms and even adds the option of the 240gr lead bullet that offers 10%-20% more power and is safe for all firearms chambered for the 44-40. https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...-Winchester-73
    I followed up his topic by pushing it up to High Velocity replications....although he has done so many times: https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...-of-Yesteryear
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 03-24-2018 at 08:34 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    Whether your reply was directed at me or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was somewhat condescending. I never missed the point of your reply, I never read anything anywhere in this 3 page (now 4) topic that gave me the inclination that someone was simply trying avoid using black powder. Incidentally when I shot CAS at my local club, I was the only one that used it
    For me......I enjoy black powder, I enjoy replicating history...."been there done that". The key word here is ENJOY! Do what makes you happy and let other people do what makes them happy. One reason I quit CAS was because I was always given a hard time because I did use the stuff.

    OPTIONS! Looking in to what works and what doesnt, it's a hobby. If you are not interested, move on along. If you enjoy reading about black powder and the 44-40, check out this website: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
    Jack - first thanks for your patience - it is appreciated.
    I had no idea commercial ammo has been so watered down - have not bought loaded 44/40 ammo since I dont know when - Dominion in the old days was good ammo - the proper winchester stuff was too - have had a 44/40 since the late 1960/s - and for a while there I loaded that one quite hot - forget the details but would have been in the 1800fps region according to the books - early days we loaded Nobels revolver No 1 , then an IMR ball powder which deteriorated in storage , then 4227 , later I loaded some with RE7 (just plinker loads 16 grains) had a repro colt pistol for a while and that used 7 grains of AP70 - seems like enough in a handgun but is a quiet plinker load in an 1866 rifle,

    Have some blackpowder chrono results here for interest (or not)
    225 grain cast 36 gr Goex 5FA = 1155 with 43 spread
    225 grain cast 36 gr wano PPP = 1050 with 37 spread (did I tellya I dont like Wano)
    225 grain cast 36 grain Homebrew = 1209 with 62 spread
    later ...................
    200 grain cast 40 grain FFFg homebrew = 1355 with 37 spread
    200 grain cast 36.5 grain FFFg homebrew = 1288 with 49 spread
    200 grain cast 39 grain CTGno 3 homebrew = 1339 with 31 spread
    225 grain cast 36.5 grain Goex 5FA = 1165 with 45 spread
    By loading more carefully I believe the shot to shot would come down - but I am not shooting these past 100yards at this point
    Duplex load of 3 grains 4227 would likely lift velocity by about 80 to 100fps .. I have not used it in the 44/40 but did so in my 45/75 to use up some dirty burning chinese powder . I dont have chrono numbers for any of the earlier smokeless loads

  4. #64
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Here is some velocity data for factory .44-40 loads I've tested:

    .44-40 Factory and Group 2*(+P) loads fired in two Ruger Vaqueros, with 19.5" H&R Single Shot rifle for comparison:

    Hand loads assembled in fireformed and resized Starline brass with Remington 2-1/2 primers.

    Load Description_________Ruger 5-1/2"______Ruger 7-1/2"____H&R 19.5"Backpack Bunny Gun”

    -------------------------------Cyl.Gap 0.003"-------Cyl.Gap 0.002"---------Solid barrel

    Rem-UMC 200 JSP___________n/f___________1017, 16 Sd______1231, 19 Sd___Pre WW2 factory Balloon Head

    R-P 200-gr. JSP____________872, 24 Sd_______942, 21 Sd_______1159, 29 Sd___1960s, Bridgeport, CT production

    R-P 200-gr. JSP____________867, 13 Sd_______920, 19 Sd_______1106, 32 Sd___Current Lonoke, AR production

    W-W 200-gr. JSP___________856, 19 Sd_______886, 29 Sd_______1105, 25 Sd___Current East Alton, IL production

    Rem .427” 200 JSP 24.5 RL7__902, 31 Sd_______1044, 24 Sd______1232, 30 Sd___Safe in Winchester 1873

    *43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 7.2 BE__997, 10 Sd_______1052, 9 Sd_______1199, 6 Sd__ +P, 1.60" OAL crimped top groove

    *200LFN WW .430" 18#2400_1215, 57Sd______1373, 41Sd_______1577, 22Sd___+P Magma design.

    *43-230EB 1:30 24.5 RL7____1127, 28Sd______1252, 32 Sd______1439, 25Sd___+P John Kort Design

    ColMeanV (gain) FPS-----------977-(REF)-----1061 (+84 over 5-1/2")-----1256 ( +195 over 7-1/2")
    The ENEMY is listening.
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  5. #65
    Boolit Master Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Jack - first thanks for your patience - it is appreciated.
    I had no idea commercial ammo has been so watered down - have not bought loaded 44/40 ammo since I dont know when - Dominion in the old days was good ammo - the proper winchester stuff was too - have had a 44/40 since the late 1960/s - and for a while there I loaded that one quite hot - forget the details but would have been in the 1800fps region according to the books - early days we loaded Nobels revolver No 1 , then an IMR ball powder which deteriorated in storage , then 4227 , later I loaded some with RE7 (just plinker loads 16 grains) had a repro colt pistol for a while and that used 7 grains of AP70 - seems like enough in a handgun but is a quiet plinker load in an 1866 rifle,

    Have some blackpowder chrono results here for interest (or not)
    225 grain cast 36 gr Goex 5FA = 1155 with 43 spread
    225 grain cast 36 gr wano PPP = 1050 with 37 spread (did I tellya I dont like Wano)
    225 grain cast 36 grain Homebrew = 1209 with 62 spread
    later ...................
    200 grain cast 40 grain FFFg homebrew = 1355 with 37 spread
    200 grain cast 36.5 grain FFFg homebrew = 1288 with 49 spread
    200 grain cast 39 grain CTGno 3 homebrew = 1339 with 31 spread
    225 grain cast 36.5 grain Goex 5FA = 1165 with 45 spread
    By loading more carefully I believe the shot to shot would come down - but I am not shooting these past 100yards at this point
    Duplex load of 3 grains 4227 would likely lift velocity by about 80 to 100fps .. I have not used it in the 44/40 but did so in my 45/75 to use up some dirty burning chinese powder . I dont have chrono numbers for any of the earlier smokeless loads
    Joe, I thank you for your patience as well!!! I am eager to learn about what information you have to offer!!!!

    Those are some great velocities with both the 225gr and 200gr bullets!!!
    Here is a short blog I wrote up about the revolver and watered down factory loads with links to one of 30wcf's and outpost75's articles.
    https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...fles-companion

  6. #66
    Boolit Master Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Outpost75,

    regarding that Magma bullet...seems to be the mold many factory manufactures like Oregon Trail, Acme, Hunter's Supply and Meister uses in their mass productions as well as what Buffalo Bore uses in their new "Heavy" loads. Can you shed some light on that mold?

  7. #67
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    Outpost75,

    regarding that Magma bullet...seems to be the mold many factory manufactures like Oregon Trail, Acme, Hunter's Supply and Meister uses in their mass productions as well as what Buffalo Bore uses in their new "Heavy" loads. Can you shed some light on that mold?
    Drawing is on the Magma web site.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  8. #68
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    9.3X62AL's Avatar
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    I have a fairly long association with both the 44/40 and the 32/20 WCF calibers. One thing that I keep in the back of my mind when discussing these calibers is a factoid that the late Frank Barnes wrote in an early edition of his great Cartridges Of The World--that there are a number of calibers that did not make the transition from black powder to smokeless powder as gracefully as others have. IIRC, he said this specifically about the 45 Colt--but more than implied it in his discussions of the hyphenated Winchester levergun/revolver calibers as well.

    The black powders we use today are not of the high quality and ballistic yield that the powders of the 1890s could develop. A few premium black powders get close, but still fall a bit short. One other factor at play is modern brass of solid-head design--the old balloon-head cases could hold more black powder that their modern counterparts. "More boiler room" = "More steam", especially if you completely fill that space with propellant.

    The calculus has to change when you intend to use smokeless powders in an older arm designed around black powder pressure development. John Kort's extensive testing of 100%-density loads of RL-7 sold me on the idea on its use as a substitute for black powder VOLUME FOR VOLUME in 32/20 and 44/40 loads fired in vintage or repro 1880s/1890s designs. Velocities are very close to what has been claimed for the black powder loads traditionally, and accuracy had been acceptable.

    The rationale has been to use the Lyman traditional bullet designs as they were intended--seated upon a column of powder creating safe and useful pressures while shunting down a rifle's magazine tube and crimped over the ogival curve to prevent outward "bullet telescoping" when fired in wheelguns. IME, the procedure excels at this tasking--though powder costs are increased significantly. A 1-pound flask of Alliant RL-7 costs about the same price as a 1-pounder of Alliant 2400; with RL-7 you are using almost twice the weight of powder per shot as you would with 2400. We all have different priorities.
    Last edited by 9.3X62AL; 03-25-2018 at 05:47 PM.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  9. #69
    Boolit Master Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    great input 62AL,

    Here are some tests results I got from using 2400 in my revolvers.
    https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...velocity-loads

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    Joe, I thank you for your patience as well!!! I am eager to learn about what information you have to offer!!!!

    Those are some great velocities with both the 225gr and 200gr bullets!!!
    Here is a short blog I wrote up about the revolver and watered down factory loads with links to one of 30wcf's and outpost75's articles.
    https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...fles-companion
    Jack I enjoyed the blog! had a armi san marco (EMF) 1873 colt repro 5 1/2 inch barrel in 44/40 back last century - they took it off me in the howard buyback - it was a fine shooter straight out of the box - I had to cut the front sight some to get it on line and backed the mainspring off to ease the trigger pull - used to shoot the 225 grain CBE boolit over 7 grains of AP70 - OR a full case of black - 36.5 grains of GOEX 5FA - never chronoed either (dint have my chrono then) -- when I got the news it was being confiscated I took it and a load of ammo to pistol club and shot till I was sick of it - had cleaned it and was half packed up when the club captain wandered into the range area - idly stated hed never shot one of those - now I am a D grade hack and this guy has won every club aggregate there is - I offered him the gun - he took three boolits - I said fill it up theres plenty ammo - no three will do - anyway he let one go (blackpowder round) - "man ! this thing kicks!" - nah its only a 44/40 - shot the other two off - cleared the gun - thanked me - off he went - I finished packing up - thought no more about it really. There was a young feller there had been hangin out talking while I put my stuff away (think he liked the look of the cowboy gun) and we went forward to pull down the remaining targets - so mr club captain had shot on a clean target and both of us were lookin at it as we approached - I pulled up about five feet short and looked across at my young compadre - he is grinning like the cat that got the cheese - what? - he says "no holes!"- ahh you seen it too, funny thing about that - I grinned back at him "dont tell anybody but I am gonna enjoy this for a long time!" .....he musta been scairt of that ole cowboy pistol - clean missed three outa three.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Jack I enjoyed the blog! had a armi san marco (EMF) 1873 colt repro 5 1/2 inch barrel in 44/40 back last century - they took it off me in the howard buyback - it was a fine shooter straight out of the box - I had to cut the front sight some to get it on line and backed the mainspring off to ease the trigger pull - used to shoot the 225 grain CBE boolit over 7 grains of AP70 - OR a full case of black - 36.5 grains of GOEX 5FA - never chronoed either (dint have my chrono then) -- when I got the news it was being confiscated I took it and a load of ammo to pistol club and shot till I was sick of it - had cleaned it and was half packed up when the club captain wandered into the range area - idly stated hed never shot one of those - now I am a D grade hack and this guy has won every club aggregate there is - I offered him the gun - he took three boolits - I said fill it up theres plenty ammo - no three will do - anyway he let one go (blackpowder round) - "man ! this thing kicks!" - nah its only a 44/40 - shot the other two off - cleared the gun - thanked me - off he went - I finished packing up - thought no more about it really. There was a young feller there had been hangin out talking while I put my stuff away (think he liked the look of the cowboy gun) and we went forward to pull down the remaining targets - so mr club captain had shot on a clean target and both of us were lookin at it as we approached - I pulled up about five feet short and looked across at my young compadre - he is grinning like the cat that got the cheese - what? - he says "no holes!"- ahh you seen it too, funny thing about that - I grinned back at him "dont tell anybody but I am gonna enjoy this for a long time!" .....he musta been scairt of that ole cowboy pistol - clean missed three outa three.
    lol, now thats funny!!!

  12. #72
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    [QUOTE=9.3X62AL;4329061]I have a fairly long association with both the 44/40 and the 32/20 WCF calibers. One thing that I keep in the back of my mind when discussing these calibers is a factoid that the late Frank Barnes wrote in an early edition of his great Cartridges Of The World--that there are a number of calibers that did not make the transition from black powder to smokeless powder as gracefully as others have. IIRC, he said this specifically about the 45 Colt--but more than implied it in his discussions of the hyphenated Winchester levergun/revolver calibers as well.

    The black powders we use today are not of the high quality and ballistic yield that the powders of the 1890s could develop. A few premium black powders get close, but still fall a bit short. One other factor at play is modern brass of solid-head design--the old balloon-head cases could hold more black powder that their modern counterparts. "More boiler room" = "More steam", especially if you completely fill that space with propellant.

    How much more steam???

    200 grain cast + 40 grain FFFg homebrew = 1355 FPS

    I think thats right up there with the old stuff - What about Swiss ?

    Getting the charge into modern cases is problematic - gotta lean on it hard - some cases just will not take it! ... but were they tellin the truth back then either? 38/55 ? the only way you might get 55 grains of blackpowder in that case is leave the boolit out!!

    I have shot almost 100yr old Curtiss and Harveys powder - it was ranked as the best English - shot about like Wano velocity but much cleaner in the gun - I think that is maybe the big difference to modern blackpowder

  13. #73
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    No tries with WANO or Old Eynsford (yet) in the 44/40 or 32/20.

    In Starline cases I can get about 37.0 grains of Swiss 3F into a 44/40 casing, then compress the daylights out of it with a 41 Magnum expander die spud used as a compression die. In my '73 Winchester using 30/1 lead/tin SAECO #446 I got 1275-1290 FPS, and just under 2" groups at 50 yards. I would happily hunt deer with that assembly.

    In Starline 32/20 casings, 18.0 grains/Swiss 3F was compressed enough to enable bullet seating with Lyman #311008. From the Marlin 94CCL, these shot OK, about 2.75" at 50 yards (this rifle does a LOT better with other loads) and velocities barely exceeded 1200 FPS.

    Bottom line--a full case of RL-7 is a lot less work to assemble--load--and clean up afterwards.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    This morning I had an enjoyable shoot!!!

    100 Yards
    4" Circle

    https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...y-at-100-yards

    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #75
    Boolit Master
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    A venison-maker of the first order!
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check