Drool.
A 20 gauge SxS always makes me drool.
I've never had one, I don't need one but I've always wanted one and I still do.
|
   
   
|
|
Drool.
A 20 gauge SxS always makes me drool.
I've never had one, I don't need one but I've always wanted one and I still do.
I'm no machinist, and it'd prolly take a fairly good one to build what I'm thinking about, but this is my thought:What about sights on the center rib, the rear is a 2-leaf fold down, and you sight in each leaf?
Rather than regulating the barrels, regulate the rear sights. Build an assembly that clamps to the rib, between the two barrels (just forward of the chambers I would think), and has apertures ("ghost rings"?) that can be screw-adjusted from side to side. The shooter looks through the aperture for the front sight (which may need to be bigger or taller), which the shooter's eye(s) should naturally center into the ring.
If the center rib isn't sturdy enough for the recoil, perhaps the sight assembly could be attached with clamps extending around the outside of the barrels, just forward of the chamber-portion of said barrels. Just thinking aloud, in a hypo-caffeinated state, so if this sounds stupid, it may very well be.
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40
Carpe SCOTCH!
This is a fun read !
We have a Savage 311 20 gauge that will become a a smoothbore rifle with .005 constriction at the muzzle on both barrels with a single rear sight for right and left barrel at 50 yards with round ball.
Sort of to go along with our Fox B 12 gauge which is set up the same. This one does 3.5 - 4 inches at 50 yards both barrels.
"Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.
Originally Posted by missionary5155
Glad to hear it. Your Fox B produces exactly the accuracy I'd like to get from my project. That gives me encouragement that this will ultimately work out.
I've been so busy lately that I haven't yet managed to make it to the range (again). I've got about 70 rounds worth of test loads to try, along with a temporary set of better sights on the shotgun (including a ghost ring rear sight).
I also have loaded some lighter homemade slugs, weighing about 209 grains average, in addition to the ones I already have been making. Just another "angle" to try. Got to get some more free time for this...because I am itching to move forward on this project. At least I am managing to get a week off, the second week of next month - so if I can't get to the range before then, I will certainly make it then.
Same thing with me...that is why I took the plunge. Didn't NEED it...didn't know WHAT I was gonna do with it...but I wanted one, just the same. Now, at least I have a purpose for it. Thanks for the comment.
That is, essentially the idea I am working toward. I don't know what form the sights will take, at the end of the day, but probably compensating with sights, rather than the barrel(s), is likely the more practical idea. Got to get a "baseline" understanding of how the barrels shoot now (now that I have fixed my bubba muzzle job)...before I can move forward. Thanks for the idea, though. I do like ghost ring sights...
The key to accuracy with a smooth bore is to have a IC choke in the barrel. My A5 Buck Special Barrel shoots Foster Style Slugs into 2" at 50 yards. It has a .729 bore and .715 muzzle. Ithaca figured this out with their "Deerslayer Barrels for M37's, and Browning picked it up immediately. It actually works so the must have been onto something.
Which brings me to this idea: Why not thread the barrels after they are cut off for choke tubes.(IC) Then rotate the choke tubes to regulate the barrels, then lock them in place some how? JB Weld? Solder?
should work?
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
Randy... I have had the same idea but for rifled choke tubes. Not sure it would work with factory made choke tubes as they are likely very precisely made with negligible eccentricity but if a choke tube was machined intentionally eccentric the rotating it in the muzzle should allow for correcting barrel regulation. I would use a locknut or varying thickness of shims (washers) depending on thread location. Shims should work for any choke type. You'd probably want the shims to be a couple of thread pitches thick at "0" then increased thicknesses in maybe 1/8 turn up to one turn. A locknut would be simpler but would require threads to be located at the muzzle. And for shims you'd need a shoulder at the muzzle but there are choke tubes like that.
Soldering would be solid and no danger of moving but also makes cleaning and issue as crud would get between the choke tube and barrel, I think, leading to corrosion.
For smooth bore I'd like to try filing the muzzles to regulate. I do have a nasty old beat up side by I don't mind trying that on and just may give it a go one day. Add that to the very large list of things I "have" to get done one day! Maybe one day I'll get some done!
Longbow
Kent: The slop wouldn't be in the choke tubes themselves. It would be in the internal threads you put in the barrel.
A few .000 off the O/D of the muzzle end of the tubes would give enough room for shims if just rotating them didn't work.
I think if you could get 3" groups out of both barrels at 50 yards with Lee Slugs or Foster Slugs or Brenneke Slugs I think you'd be golden.
I tried building one of these a few years back using a "Vintage" Steven's 311 12 ga. Unfortunately the gun was garbage even after I detailed the inside of it, and was NOT going to be suitable for anything useful so I sold it! and moved on.
An old beat up Fox Double would be the hot ticket for one of these projects.
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
A quick update. First, the barrel(s) do not seem to be as out of regulation as it first appeared. Correcting the muzzle has made a large difference. Second, I am not at all sure about the sight issue just yet - which contributed to inconsistent results at the range the other day. The short version is that, apparently, my old eyes will NOT work with a ghost ring (rear) sight. I had installed a temporary set of elevated sights on the centre rib, to test. Unfortunate, as I shot much better with the simple fibre optic bead and rear notch sights I was using before. So, the sights actually got in the way of good results. However, I was able to get several tight groups - and both barrels much closer to centre. I intended to test the temporary sights, then order a set of good quality Express sights and install them. I very likely will have to re-think that, however. No amount of moving the rear (ghost ring) sight, forward or back along the centre rib, seemed to make it usable for my eyes. A simple front bead and rear notch I can use, though. I have now reverted to that simple system. The obvious solution, if the barrel regulation does turn out to be no real issue...would be a low magnification scope. But, I am determined that I do NOT want to go that route.
Anyway, another thorough test session is called for - without ANY further changes to the gun. That should really give a solid read as to where the barrels actually group. Only AFTER that will I consider any further changes. I knew better - NEVER introduce any extraneous variables, if you can possibly help it. Should learn to listen to my better judgement...after all these years (eye roll).
Remember you can change the impact of the barrels by varying the velocity of your slugs.
Just load slightly higher and lower and notice where the impact changes.
This is so very true with doubles. That's why we regulate them to different loads.
I jumped in this madness last week,too. I had a 20 sxs for test... all I wanted to see was regulation.
It has a short stock for me,shoots high and to the left but both barrels go about the same. This is ten RB:s, my Economy Load, alternating barrels. The smaller 44 holes are another thing altogether, never mind them.
I was aiming low , around "4" @ 6 o' clock. Almost a ragged hole.
I returned the gun for now but let them know I might want it ... 20 gauges do not sell around here where I live.
That looks pretty nice Petander!! What range was that target shot at?
Randy... you figure there is enough slop and built in inaccuracy in the machining as is to correct regulation by rotating choke tubes? I'd figure you'd need a few thou (0.005"?) eccentricity to make enough difference. Of course that's just my gut feeling... and sometimes it don't feel too good!
Longbow
The threads you'd cut in the barrels to receive the choke tubes will be oversized (relative) They would be cut with a tap and if the barrels are made from Cro-moly they will be rough. Point being, the OD of the choke's threads will probably be less than a perfect fit in the ID threads in the barrels. Thus allowing some slop. IE: Thread Clearance.
If there isn't enough slop between the OD of the choke tube and the ID in the barrel that the tube fits into (not the threads but the area in front of the threads) then by taking a .005 cut on the OD of the tubes would make enough slop to where you could shim the tube in whatever direction you wanted to go.
Point of all of this is the fact that there has to be some clearance in the threads or else they won't go together (IE: 2A or 3A fit) If you take a Bolt and screw it into a Nut and then put the nut in a vise you will be able to move the bolt a little sideways in any direction, due the the Clearance in the threads.
It doesn't take much movement to regulate barrels, so Yes I think there would be enough clearance in the threads to make it happen. It might happen buy Rotating the tube, or you might have to shim it. One or the other will work.
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
Another update. I had some time today, so I made a trip to the range. Had some pretty good results and came to a decision. Firstly, my barrel regulation issue seems to be cured. Each barrel shoots within a couple of inches of the other, at least at 25 yards. So, there may well be nothing left to do with that. I have still not finalized the sights on this project. I probably will, at some point, install a good set of Express Sights. But, for now, I will stay with the front fiber-optic bead and the simple rear (receiver) notch. Seems to work and I am learning the exact hold I need to shoot to the center of the targets. It is more of a challenge than an adjustable sight system would be, but not too much so. Besides, I like a good challenge. As to today's decision, it concerns my loads. I had narrowed things down to 3 different (but quite similar) loads, two using homemade hot-glue slugs...and the last using the same .53 caliber ball in the same plastic wad...but shot as a "loose ball" load. The wad only serves as a sabot. Well, THAT configuration has won the day (the "loose ball" load). It is not really more accurate, in broad terms...but it DOES seem to be more consistent. I put that down to manufacturing tolerances (making the hot glue slugs truly consistent is, at best, difficult).
Anyway, I have included photos. First, the components used, plus the stick I use to roll the paper liner that takes up the extra space in the shot cup. Next, the rolled paper liner cup. Third, the card wad and paper liner installed in the shot cup. Lastly, the finished product.
The ball, as I said, is swaged...0.53" in diameter (Hornady)...avg. weight about 225 grains. The wad is a cut off Winchester WAA20...but I also use the Claybusters CB1078-20 copy. On top of the load stack I use an ordinary overshot card...then seal with paraffin wax (instead of a crimp).
I am getting groups of around 3 - 4" at 25 yards, but that is from a standing, off-hand shooting position. The range I am using these days is really just an indoor pistol range...and is not equipped for seated shooting from a rest. No doubt better groups can be had from a rested position. I am working on that - I may make a set of shooting sticks to use there (probably about the only way I can shoot from a rest at that facility). In the near future, I will move to an outdoor range with proper rifle shooting stations...but for now, the indoor range is convenient (and I have limited time). As for the actual load I am using...I am being cautious about mentioning the powder charge weight, but it does use Hodgdon International powder...and either Winchester or Fiocchi hulls. Also, Federal 209a primers.
I have decided to make this my standard load for this project. So, now I can focus on arranging to shoot from a rested position and producing the best groups I can...followed by coming to a decision on the sights.
Last edited by bcp477; 11-13-2020 at 06:01 PM.
Bcp477, thanks for the update.
My limited accuracy test was 25 yds as well, quite similar results.
I amazed myself with the similar "sights"... , I actually enjoyed learning them, it's a very welcome break from all the high power small target shooting I do.
There is a high purchase possibility... the shop guys even talked the price down quite a bit without me asking... funny how people still think of 20 gauges as " underpowered"... tungsten and all..
Yes, the lowly 20 gauge...what a pity.Part of the reason I started this project was to get "back to basics", so to speak. I did the super high precision stuff...trying to put rifle bullets into the same hole at 300, 400, 500 yards, for years. I just got tired of it. I enjoy very much the challenge of seeing what can be done with the simplest set-up...using a smooth bore barrel. Back to basics shooting has made it fun again !
Hot dang here we go.
I've been shooting those 320 meter claybirds on that berm since -95. No idea how many different rifles/calibers... And who knows how many small, smaller,large and larger 300 m groups on paper...? Never small enough...
Enter a 20 gauge s&s for some relaxed fun.
Oh man I think I really need to grab it.
Well, I think Ajay summed it up when he compared 20 ga. to .62 nitro express for slugs. Nothing wrong with that!
A 20 ga. double set up for slugs would be nice indeed!
Longbow
Dear Santa...
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote