Centerfire Guns Used As In-Line Muzzleloaders

[country gent]

The early long range target shooters in some countries didnt trust like the new fangled fixed cartridges and continued to load the early cartridge single shots from the muzzle. A later version of this was in the shutzen matches where the bullet was breech seated into the rifling and a charged case behind it.

I have seen HR single shots converted to muzzle loaders. Some were fairly crude with just a breech plug fitted and the chamber left in the back, but if you used enough powder to get to or ahead of it they shot decent. Others were done as a stub barrel and very nice.

Dine right a bolt action with extractor and ejector altered for the 209 primers would be interesting.

[KCSO]

I have done conversions for both the Remington rolling block and the trapdoor and both worked well.

[Good Cheer]

Shooting the single shot .41 mag like a .40-65, .40-72 or .40-82 could be just too much fun.

[Jedman]

I have converted several 45-70 H&R handi rifles to smokeless powder muzzleloaders. I make a homemade breech plug that uses a no. 60 O ring in front of a 209 size primer and it seals well. The rifles use a 45/40 cal. sabot and your choice of 40 cal. Boolit. I have shot deer with the Hornady tipped 40 cal. 200 gr. and a 230 gr. FN cast boolit.
Being the pressure doesn’t create breech thrust on the frame this works fine using a SB 1 receiver on a handi rifle.
For the ramrod I use the H&R type that extends by unscrewing the 2 pc. brass rod and using a Huntsman forend or a modified H&R rifle or shotgun forend .
This makes a nice combo rifle/ muzzleloader or shotgun / muzzleloader.

Jedman

[FergusonTO35]

I would love it if there was a way to proof a quality inline for low pressure smokeless powder use. I'm talking like shotgun pressure, not anything like centerfire rifle.

[pietro]

.

AFAIK, Savage, Remington & T/C muzzleloaders were based on the Model 110, Model 700 & Encore (respectively) CF rifles, which have NP with the pressures - but there's no other inline front stuffer that I'd even think of using smokeless powder in. (YMMV, of course)

My state, and doubtless others, specifically designate black powder (or a BP substitute) for muzzleloader hunting.

[Jedman]

I would love it if there was a way to proof a quality inline for low pressure smokeless powder use. I'm talking like shotgun pressure, not anything like centerfire rifle.

There are many inline muzzleloaders that would be safe to shoot with smokeless powder at shotgun pressures but your on your own for loading data. Many quality muzzleloader barrels are 4140 steel and would be perfectly safe but you wount get the manufacturer to ever say it’s safe. Load data I have seen for the Savage smokeless MZ would scare the hell out of me even in their rifles. If I were to experiment using smokeless in a quality inline with 209 primers I would never use a full bore size bullet . Always use a sabot, compare what you are loading to something similar in a lower pressure cartridge then start a little lower. For example say you have a 45 cal. muzzleloader and want to shoot a 40 cal. boolit at lower pressure - think of the 38-40 cartridge with smokeless load data. Using a slower powder such as I 4198 or R 7 you can load whatever will fit in a 38-40 case with a 200 gr. Lead bullet and be within sammi limits and get reasonably hi velocities.
I am not giving any load recommendations but whatever velocities are possible with black powder and a given weight of boolit it is possible to duplicate or improve upon with smokeless at the same pressures.
Myself and several other I know have done quite a bit of testing smokeless loads with slower burn rate powders and realize we are in uncharted waters but don’t push it for anything near what they say a Savage is capable of and have not had any indications we are stressing the gun.

Jedman

[Jedman]

Not to get to far off topic of this thread but it is still kinda the same thing is I took a early H&R 58 cal. Huntsman muzzleloader and lathe bored the breech end of the barrel to use 24 ga. shotgun hulls. It is shot with smokeless powder in a plastic hull with either a 54 cal. lead round ball in a 24 ga. Plastic wad or with a Lyman hollow based 58 cal. mini ball and roll crimped.
It is a proven pig killer !

Jedman

[725]

Just for giggles, I took a used shotgun hull and trimmed the plastic all the way down to the brass, primed the brass, chambered it and then loaded the shotgun as if it were a ML. 12 ga., patched .7?? ball over some triple seven and it worked fine. I was more interested in "what if" than finding an alternate to my regular ML. Like I said, it worked, but loading a primed piece was more excitement than I cared for. Stupid is as stupid does, as they say.

[charlie b]

ML a modern shotgun and you have the choke to deal with.

Why not load it from the breech? Shove a bullet in there, maybe a ball inside a plastic wad? Add powder. Add 'cap'.

[FergusonTO35]

I am quite happy with Triple 7 in both my inlines and sidelocks. If I was stuck with nothing but awful Pyrodex, I would definitely be inclined to do some modest experimentation with a strong rifle.

[goblism]

I have a 40 cal muzzleloader on a 700 action. Smokeless powder. Thing is amazingly accurate (under 2" groups at 300 yards, likely can do better as the shooter is what limits it's ability) and packs a punch of 275 gr at 2900 fps. Action and breech plug can both handle more pressure but I don't like to push it nearly as hard as some of the smokeless guys out there.
Breech plug has hard brass modules that load a large rifle magnum primer as well.
There are actually guys out there that seem to be outshooting cartridge type rounds using their custom muzzleloaders, we are talking well below MOA at 1000+ yards!

[HumptyDumpty]

Hmmm, it sounds to me as though you gentlemen are simply inventing a more difficult way of loading black-powder cartridges.

[FergusonTO35]

Thing is, in most places black powder cartridges are legally the same thing as the 6.5-378 Saturn Rocket Magnum that was invented yesterday. Meaning, they can only be used during modern firearms season.

[HumptyDumpty]

Ahh, I hadn't thought of that.

[Jedman]

Really I don’t shoot my muzzleloaders much anymore and we have a short muzzleloader season for deer. I wanted a smokeless muzzleloader strictly out of laziness, I hate cleaning black powder guns !
I don’t try getting superior ballistics than I can with real BP as I have shot many deer with real BP and have never had to shoot past 100 yards in nearly 50 years of deer hunting. In fact I have killed more with my little Hopkins Allen 45 cal. buggy rifle with a 20” barrel and round ball twist than any of my larger more powerful muzzleloaders.

Jedman

[Agrotom]

Heck I just want to buy another gun. Why fool around with an insert?

[FergusonTO35]

Heck I just want to buy another gun. Why fool around with an insert?

Best possible answer!!

[FergusonTO35]

Don't some states have a "primitive rifle" season these days? As in single shot and at least .35 caliber straight wall cartridge? Would love to see that happen here.

[mooman76]

Most states do have a primitive season but they all define it differently. Most will also be 45 or larger for muzzle loaders for deer.