Vectan Nobel Sport BA9

[Cree]

Hello all! For years now, I’ve been playing with the old standard of 16-20 grains of 2400 in everything from 7x57 to 7.5 Swiss, but this spring, when my then 10 year old son began shooting centerfires, I found how nicely 8-12 grains of Universal and Unique work in so many milsurps (and seemingly everything else...). Long story short, lately, as we all know, some powders are getting harder to find. Graf’s had a good deal on Vectan/NodleSport powders recently so I studied up on the burn charts and determined that their BA9 is similar to Unique/Universal and grabbed a couple pounds.
My question is, has anyone done any ladder tests on this powder in rifles as a replacement or supplement for our “usual” Unique or Universal loads? I’ve reloaded for a long time, so I completely understand I need to determine what’s safe in my own firearms, but I figured I could cut some time off the learning curve if there was a “known” relationship between the powders - as we’ve done with Unique and Universal, for example. Burn rate charts can give us a good place to start, as can comparing published data and making (qualified) deductions based on our knowledge.
If not, I’m happy to be the guinea pig, but with deer season getting close, I can’t promise thorough reporting too fast. I have tried the search function, but there simply doesn’t seem to be a lot of data to go with - although what I have found suggests the stuff burns clean and the fact it’s packed in 1.1 pound cans is a bit of a bonus from a cost point of view.
As it stands right now, I have plenty of handgun fodder loaded with Universal that it might be awhile before i get around to doing anything with it there, but I’ve just gotten my Arisaka project back with a “true” 308 Winchester barrel and chamber from Rick Steinhour at Extreme Rifle Works, so I’ve been doing a lot with it in cast and with 2400 and Universal. An added incentive is I was given a boatload of Missouri Bullets from a friend who didn’t understand why they wouldn’t shoot in his 30-06 with j-word loads, and my own work with these indicates they are very accurate under 1300 fps, but anything higher, they toss patterns even in rifles dedicated to boolits. My little boy didn’t seem to care how fast or how hard the alloy was, as long as he could ring the gong with my old Savage 340. That’s enough to make you want to buy a few extra cans of powder!

[Cree]

So, I’m the guinea pig, lol. I loaded up five each tonight with some 173 gr. GC boolits, started at 9.5, and kept on adding half grains until I got to 11. This will give me 25 to start and some decent data to compare to the same boolit I have loaded with Universal... if the weather cooperates, I can report in after this weekend. These are still really light compared to published Unique and Universal data, but they ought to give me a place to start. I know the boolit is accurate in several different loadings with that rifle, so while it might not be the most scientific project, hopefully it will help the knowledge base here.

[Gewehr-Guy]

I am watching this thread to see how this powder performs for you. I am a fan of Vectan AO in some .30 caliber rifles, their powder works well and is a bargain in my opinion.

[JM7.7x58]

If I hadn’t found 12 pounds of Herco locally for a great price I would have bought a bunch of that Vectan AO. They are supposed to be very similar to each other.

JM

[Cast_outlaw]

I haven’t used ba9 but I know vectan as is similar in burn to red dot and very accurate in my 303 with the lee tl314-90 swc

[Cree]

Thanks for the support you guys - I’m planning on doing my little ladder test tomorrow, so I’ll try to have some news to share. It might not be the most scientific, but maybe it’ll help some of you fellas in the current powder pinch. Don’t hold out too much for pics, but I’ll sure share notes...

[P Flados]

If understand correctly you are working with 173 boolits in a 308 using BA9.

I ran QL for the Lee 170 with results for BA9 and then re-ran the same inputs form Unique. It looks like you need a little more BA9 to get the same velocity as Unique.

Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .309, 170, LEE C309-170-F
Useable Case Capaci: 52.294 grain H2O = 3.395 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : SNPE Vectan BA 9

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 4.545% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-45.5 18 6.00 979 362 8068 1250 100.0 2.771
-40.9 19 6.50 1024 396 9096 1345 100.0 2.619
-36.4 21 7.00 1067 430 10161 1441 100.0 2.490
-31.8 22 7.50 1109 464 11262 1535 100.0 2.377
-27.3 24 8.00 1149 498 12396 1630 100.0 2.271
-22.7 25 8.50 1188 532 13563 1724 100.0 2.171
-18.2 27 9.00 1225 567 14761 1818 100.0 2.083
-13.6 28 9.50 1261 601 15991 1912 100.0 2.003
-09.1 30 10.00 1297 635 17252 2005 100.0 1.932
-04.5 31 10.50 1331 669 18542 2098 100.0 1.866
+00.0 33 11.00 1365 703 19861 2190 100.0 1.807
+04.5 34 11.50 1398 738 21210 2282 100.0 1.752
+09.1 36 12.00 1430 772 22587 2374 100.0 1.701
+13.6 37 12.50 1462 807 23994 2465 100.0 1.655
+18.2 39 13.00 1493 841 25429 2556 100.0 1.611
+22.7 40 13.50 1523 876 26893 2647 100.0 1.571

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 33 11.00 1371 710 21081 2179 100.0 1.768
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 33 11.00 1357 695 18429 2205 100.0 1.857

Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .309, 170, LEE C309-170-F
Useable Case Capaci: 52.294 grain H2O = 3.395 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Alliant UNIQUE

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 4.545% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-45.5 19 6.00 1051 417 8721 1505 100.0 2.652
-40.9 21 6.50 1101 457 9862 1618 100.0 2.509
-36.4 23 7.00 1148 498 11047 1731 100.0 2.385
-31.8 24 7.50 1194 538 12273 1844 100.0 2.273
-27.3 26 8.00 1238 578 13540 1957 100.0 2.161
-22.7 27 8.50 1280 619 14847 2069 100.0 2.063
-18.2 29 9.00 1321 659 16191 2180 100.0 1.976
-13.6 31 9.50 1361 699 17573 2292 100.0 1.899
-09.1 32 10.00 1400 740 18991 2403 100.0 1.829
-04.5 34 10.50 1438 780 20444 2513 100.0 1.765
+00.0 35 11.00 1475 821 21933 2623 100.0 1.707
+04.5 37 11.50 1511 861 23456 2733 100.0 1.654
+09.1 39 12.00 1546 902 25013 2842 100.0 1.605
+13.6 40 12.50 1580 943 26604 2951 100.0 1.560
+18.2 42 13.00 1614 984 28229 3059 100.0 1.517
+22.7 43 13.50 1647 1024 29887 3167 100.0 1.478

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 35 11.00 1483 830 23481 2607 100.0 1.663
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 35 11.00 1463 808 20136 2646 100.0 1.766

[Meatpuppet]

I'm not well versed in BA9, but Vectan Prima V is an amazing powder for 9MM loads. I bought a LOT of it before action pistol shooters stumbled on it and the prices went up. I thingk the Vectan line of powders is under reported for its ability to burn super clean and produce low standard deviations.

[Cree]

P Flados - That’s awesome and a BIG thank you for plugging and playing that!

I ended up getting to the range today - I’ve built one at our hunting lease, but Saturday, we were bushhogging and cutting trails, so too many folks and equipment running around. Got there this morning, and had the chance to run these light loads of Vectan BA9 behind a 173 GC boolit - these were cast by an old friend (now departed), but the mold either is Ideal 311413 or it’s twin sister.

At any rate, the alloy is too hard, but I’ve always had decent accuracy from these for ringing the gong or punching paper. I’ve used them in several 30/06s, a 7.62x39 built on a Mauser 98 action, 308, and even the Savage 30/30 bolt gun.

The rifle in question is a Type 99 Arisaka that has been rebarreled with a “true” 30 caliber barrel, a take-off Howa, and rechambered into 308 Winchester. The boolits in question were tumble-lubed with liquid Alox and wear aluminum gas checks. The bore slugs .308 and the throat has no appreciable wear since the barrel was set back when it was rechambered. The rifle wears a Redfield Model 80 micrometer peep.

9.5 grains, as expected, gave sooty necks, no real recoil, and put five shots into 2 inches, with three touching.
10 grains did nearly the same.
10.5 the whole group opened up to four inches, but the soot began to clear up.
11 grains still had some soot, but the groups tightened back up, this time to 1.5 or so inches
11.5, no soot and the group had four touching, the fifth hanging outside of that for about a 1.25 inch group.
Unsurprisingly, there weren’t any pressure signs...
I also found that, despite the “expected” soot from light charges, the overall burn was cleaner than Unique and similar to what we see with Universal when it has enough “ummmph” on it.


As P Flados’ computer comparison shows, and my experience today seems to validate, Vectan BA9 shows some promise with light charges we might normally use Unique or Universal in. I’m going to clean up these cases this week and run another batch starting with 12 grains in half-grain batches to see where somewhat heavier charges can do. Hopefully this information helps somebody, especially if you are having trouble finding Unique or Universal.

[P Flados]

Glad to give you a little better understanding of what to expect with your workup effort. QL may not be super accurate, but I think it does a real good job of estimating required charges to get the same performance from different powders.

FYI, you are still well below the pressures & velocities of "The Load" made popular by Ed Harris, 13 gr Red Dot.

In 308, the 13 gr Red Dot charge is hotter than most other eligible cartridges due to the smaller case capacity. With a Lee 170 seated to 2.8" in a 20" 308, QL predicts 1629 fps at 35,300 psi. In 30-06 with a 3.34" OAL, the prediction for same charge and bullet is only 1545 fps at 27,300 psi.

I also realized I probably should have run Universal in my previous post.

Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .309, 170, LEE C309-170-F
Useable Case Capaci: 52.291 grain H2O = 3.395 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon Universal

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 4.545% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-45.5 19 6.00 1048 414 9810 1413 100.0 2.578
-40.9 21 6.50 1095 453 11038 1521 100.0 2.440
-36.4 23 7.00 1141 491 12305 1630 100.0 2.317
-31.8 24 7.50 1185 530 13608 1738 100.0 2.199
-27.3 26 8.00 1227 568 14946 1845 100.0 2.097
-22.7 27 8.50 1268 607 16319 1953 100.0 2.007
-18.2 29 9.00 1307 645 17726 2060 100.0 1.926
-13.6 31 9.50 1346 684 19166 2166 100.0 1.854
-09.1 32 10.00 1383 722 20637 2273 100.0 1.789
-04.5 34 10.50 1420 761 22141 2378 100.0 1.729
+00.0 36 11.00 1456 800 23676 2484 100.0 1.675
+04.5 37 11.50 1491 839 25243 2589 100.0 1.625
+09.1 39 12.00 1525 878 26840 2693 100.0 1.579
+13.6 40 12.50 1558 917 28469 2797 100.0 1.536
+18.2 42 13.00 1591 956 30129 2901 100.0 1.496
+22.7 44 13.50 1623 995 31820 3004 100.0 1.459

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 36 11.00 1462 806 24997 2472 100.0 1.640
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 36 11.00 1448 791 22092 2499 100.0 1.720

[Cree]

I appreciate the Universal info, and I never was worried about pressure with these loads - there are far better powders to go fast, but since we are in a “drought” with some powders and components, and Grafs had this on the shelf, it seemed like a good time to do some experimenting for light loads in a powder most of us haven’t played with.

I’ve got a lot of experimenting still to do, and a lot of boolits to do it with. I’m most intrigued to see if the giant bucket of 165 Missouri flat points I was gifted can be pushed with the right combination of speed and accuracy to at least obturate the case and group halfway decently - with any powder. So far, based ONLY on load data and my observations, they begin to throw patterns at about 1300 fps in anything, so they mostly get shot in the 30/30 bolt gun, since it feeds them with no challenges and they can give . Below that, it’s been good enough to play “hit the gong” with my kids (which is reallly important when we’re talking about recoil sensitive shooters who like reactive targets) but not enough to really get me excited.

I suspect the next round of tests with the Ideal 311413, where we’re starting to get into “The Load” territory, is going to have to be the realm of hand cast boolits, and I think I’ll find several nodes of accurate/inaccurate, but that’s part of the fun. My kids don’t care about that part, but their old man does. Thanks again, P!

[Cree]

Just an update - ran a little ladder from 12-14 grains today in half grain increments. 12.5 and 14 both shot very well - into an inch or so, while 13 and 13.5 shot 2-3 inches. It was eye-opening, to say the least, and a good reminder that the difference between a “good” load and a “horrible” load is often far less than we might think.

Hunting season opens next week here in Georgia, so I’m going to be limited in my testing, but what I’ve seen so far is that Vectan’s Ba9 does represent a quality “pistol” powder to use in rifle with cast. It’s not a grain-for-grain replacement for Universal or Unique, but it does perform very similarly and burns at least as cleanly as Universal. I know published data for both of those powders does go far higher in military cartridges than 14 grains, but, in this test, I’m quite happy with what I’ve found and hope this helps someone...

Be safe, guys...

[P Flados]

FYI, when discussing group sizes, it is nice to mention distance. Or did I miss something.

[Cree]

P Flados - These were shot at 50 yards - I thought I said that in the first range report, but I now see I didn’t - any more than that and I start losing the bead in the targets. I’ve just picked up a finer front sight of the correct height, gotta install it this week. One of these days, I’ll finally get the “right” size targets to shoot at 100 for my peep sights, but I seem to have acquired a lot more 50 foot pistol and 200 yard “reduction” targets over the years and never really bothered to buy the correct ones for the 100 yard disciplines with open sights, lol. Then I’ll be sure to forget the spotting scope!
Over the last few years, as I’ve shot more and more lead and open sights, it’s been interesting to observe how the contrast in apertures, beads, and rear sight notches - along with ambient light - becomes so critical to our discipline.

I can and do shoot my sporterized K31 (yes, I know...) at 100 and beyond, but it wears a John Wilkes micrometer and a Anschutz eyepiece, along with an aperture front sight. The difference in the “crispness” of the sights is amazing, when one switches from that to a regular aperture for a Lyman or Redfield, even if that aperture is a itty-bitty one.

These variables make the game fun...

[P Flados]

Hey, the "inch or so" at 50 with open sights and cast boolits is pretty good (even if the "or so" puts it at 1.4").

If it had been 100, I was wondering if the measurement could be resembling a fisherman's "how big was it" measurement.

Then again, my frame of reference with open sights means factory sights on sillywet handguns - a 10" or 14" contender or a Dan Wesson 357 Max. If shooting steel out to 200 meters was not a dying sport, I would probably invest in something better for the contenders. As it is, I suffer with what I have.

[Cree]

No, if I’d have shot those at 100 with the giant front bead and the little target, I’d probably have passed out right there, lol. And then happily posted the targets! As they were, I was still excited and pleasantly surprised, especially since the gun - in this version of it - is so “new” and I’ve personally only shot it less than 200 times.

That day was especially hectic, too, so I know I didn’t allow myself enough time to get all “scientifical.” The gun went bang safely, this load grouped tighter than that one, and I know when I reload these cases and set up to shoot offhand at the steel plates on the range, it should hit with a clang. If not, I’ll know who is to blame.

Thanks again for your help!