450/577 Martini Henry

[martinibelgian]

That kind of fold usually comes in when using (way) too much lube - the lube getting trapped at the shoulder, and nowhere to go to. After each pass, you need to respread the lube on the case to avoid 'pooling', which will help you avoid such events.
FWIW, if you need to use a cheater bar on a Rock Chucker, you're doing something wrong - 1st thing coming to mind is annealing too light/not far enough down - one or both. The other is not enough lube, but seeing the case with the shoulder fold, I doubt that is the issue.
Rick, shooting these Martini's is kinda addictive - and there's no cure! It's actually the challenge of getting them to perform in spite of all the 'issues' these rifles have, that makes it interesting. She's not really forgiving, and will bite you if you hold her wrong, but if you handle her with respect and know her quirks, she'll oblige by performing quite well.

[Lead pot]

Here I did a little searching for you for this project. Click on the links they posted they might be some help for you.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...-577-450-brass
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...24-gauge-brass

http://www.ehow.com/how_12118703_mak...nry-brass.html

[DoctorBill]

By Jove ! Methinks I've got it ! .....Take that RMulhern !

Been reading the POSITIVE posts about this and tried annealing just the very end
of the Magtech Brass before pressing it....then went reeeaaal slooooow.

Then of course, I also dressed the end of the starting shell with a file, reamer and some Mother's Polish.
I polish the lip smooth so as to dissuade any curling or catching on the Die shoulder before
I started the pressing.

Some of the Brass right out of the box has some rough burrs inside the lip - put your finger in there
and spin the case and you'll feel them.

I'm now three for three on my attempts just today ! No cheater bar, either !



I hope that I'm not just lucky today...but I do believe that it is coming to me.

I'm not as dumb as I look.......

Edited in later....am now ten for ten ! Ain't edicashun neeet ! ? Expurience tuue !

Thanks Lead Pot and Martinibelgian for the help - it did help !

DoctorBill

Pisanthrocorpus - an ancient fossilized creature full of coprolites better known for it's negative nature.
It became extinct with the advent of homo positivus chanduitus yabetcha.

[DoctorBill]

Since I teach (too useless to do anything else), I thought some poor Bloke who is
just getting into this might like to see the stages of reforming the Brass Magtech
24 ga cases using the LEE Sizing Die only into 577/450 Martini-Henry cases.



At this stage of doing this (rank beginner), I dress up the Magtech cases by
deburring them (Chamfer and sharp 3 edge scraper), file the outer edge clean,
polish the end with steel wool and metal polish, anneal just the end by holding the case
and dropping it into water.
Then I repolish the end, lightly lube the end with 3:1 Castor Oil : Lanolin and start it
into the DIE (it is hard to get it aligned) and slowly press it up.

I pull it out often (ha, ha) and wipe it off and lightly relube it and turn the case 90°
and press again. Should keep the case symmetrical.

Once the shoulder is almost to the neck, I anneal just the end again.
After a polish and light lube wipe, I press it until I feel that relaxation you get
when the neck has started forming.

Take it out, wipe it off, re-lube and press again to get several mm of the neck
formed.

Once the neck starts forming, you are essentially home free......

I anneal the case in the middle with the case sitting in a metal jar cap with water
so the case rim doesn't get hot.

Pick it up with forceps and drop into water (or let it cool by itself), polish the
shoulder and lightly relube.

Then I press the case up, turn it a couple of times, then screw the Die down 1 turn
and do it again until the case is about half way done.

I then grind off about 1-2 mm of the neck, chamfer and smooth and then Finish it off.
I watch for the shell holder to just touch the Die Bottom.
I rotate the shell a couple of times and repress.
Then I check case length and I'm done. Polish it up pretty....

You can grind the neck at the end, but mine hits the top of the Die and starts
to curve in again, so I do it midway.

I finish the case mouth off using a LEE 45-70 case trimmer held in my bench vice,
push and turn to make the end square - then dress it and polish it.

I'm sure that I am stepping on the toes of those who helped me and will be
told how to do this better.

No matter - everyone learns and beginners will be helped into the world of
reforming 577/450 Brass MHR Cases and won't have to mortgage their homes
to pay for them - new.

By reading the preceding posts, you will see how much help I received from
the great guys who contributed to my education.

I want to thank you fellows for helping me get to this point. Where am I ?
Well, at least now, I won't have to worry so much if I lose a case or three....

DoctorBill

PS - what Brass would one use to reform in making the 8mm Lebel Berthier Brass ?
I got's one and the LEE Dies.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...rthier-8mmx50R

[DoctorBill]

I have reformed ten shells since Sunday with no bad ones.

I guess I'm there now. These use large Pistol Primers - the Jameson use large rifle primers.
Hope I don't forget and switch them - getting old and senile!

Had two that had started to form small folds, but I peened them out with a small
watchmaker's hammer ($4 Harbor Freight) on a large Phillips Head screwdriver's curved
tip edge held in my workbench vice.

I think the dressing of the edge helps as some of these cases are definitely extruded
with ridges and non-uniformites.
You can feel them with your finger as you rotate the dressed case.

It is nice to have a bunch of the 577/450 cases and not to have to guard them
with your life from getting lost.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I'm about half way thru the second box of Magtech cases and I came up with this...



Cute !

I wonder if I can salvage this one ?

Where the Heck did everyone go ? !
Must have become boring.....sorry 'bout that !

Later.....rolled the case edge out, ground most off, peened it flat as before, annealed it
and polished the edge.



Then on to the Die....



Saved it ! Was a close one, though !



Now just grind to length, trim end and polish real pretty.....ooooh !



That is a LEE 45-70 case trimmer on the left.

BTW - I try each and every one in my Martini-Henry Mark II for fit, since a
couple just wouldn't quite go in until I bottomed out the LEE Die.

You don't want to have that happen after you reloaded the round !

DoctorBill

[phatman]

Rocky Mountain Cartridge is the name of the company that makes the best brass in my opinion.
You can order it with any size primer pocket you want.
Its also very strong as its what Ed Hubel uses in his 30Kpsi 12ga from Hell loads. The hot stuff he uses modified 50 bmg brass.

For 577/450 brass he charges $100/20 not cheap but cheaper than some and you will never wear them out.

Cheers, John

[martinibelgian]

DoctorBil,

Next time just dremel off the offending bit - both quicker and easier. Just make sure you don't cut it too short...

[Cariboo]

Doc
thanks for all the info, I've been lurking on this thread with interest as I have a 450/577 Martini Henry with 1 unfired casing and no dies. maybe some day I'll get around to playing with it??

[loiner1965]

brilliant thread as i done this myself and only made a couple of decent ones but i been told its alot easier using a modified lee f/l die.
will attempt again with this newly aquired info.
i bought around 30 of these cases from a friend who reformed them and i have checked each one and to be honest they are perfect

[DoctorBill]

loiner1965 - If you have the LEE Die - that is all you need.

Except for the tools and a Butane Torch ! Steel wool, file, chamfering tool, CastorOil:Lanolin case lube.

Anneal by hand until the case starts to get hot on your fingers then dump it in water.
Dress the neck really well - smooth and filed so the edge is smooth and round.
Lube very lightly and wipe with clean fingers. Don't want lube bubbles to form !!!
Go really, really, really slow until the shoulder starts to form (where folds happen)
then the neck starts to form.
Rotate the case constantly.
I mean go slow - checking after every press - for crimps (folds).

Once the neck starts up, re-anneal, clean it off , re-lube and go again and rotate
the case after each press push.

After getting about half there, anneal the whole case while it is sitting in maybe 1/4 inch
of water (to protect the base), cool it, wipe off and light lube again.

Now go slowly until the shell holder butts up to the die.
Rotate often and rotate 3x when done to make it symmetrical.

Check each one in your Martini - if doesn't go in all the way, run into the die to where
the shell holder presses against the die - mine need that last bit, or they won't fit.
On a few, I had to insert some 3x5 card circles into the shell holder to raise the case
up and then do the last bit. This may be peculiar to my Martini though - who knows (?).
Lube to the rim - it does help for that last portion.

If you get impatient and start speeding up, you'll start getting folds and
then you're screwed.
Anneal and try peening the fold flat on the starting shoulder.
Once a fold gets into the formed shoulder - you are essentially screwed.

Trim the neck to size, dress it off smooth, and polish it so it is pretty.

Repeat, over and over until you puke...

DoctorBill

[loiner1965]

cheers doctor for the encouragement i will retry again when i source some magtec cases

[montana_charlie]

They all fit into my Mark II Martini-Henry although they measure 2.34 inches long.
Jameson Brass comes 2.31 inches in length.
What IS 577/450 supposed to be in length ? 2.355 inch ?

Make a chamber cast if you want that answered by your rifle.

Otherwise ...



CM

[martinibelgian]

Actualy, the chamber configuration of the MH is such that you could easily use longer brass, there actually is no 'end' to the chamber. As the cartridge predates CIP/SAAMI standardization, there actually are myriads of chamber configurations out there next to the 'recent' CIP one - and they are all correct...
meaning the chamber isn't all that fussy about brass length, a bit longer or shorter doesn't really matter.

[herbert buckland]

A chamber cast can help in choosing the cass lenth that fits the bullet diameter you are using ,as the chambe is tapperd you can find the case lenth needed so the bullet is a snug fit in the mouth of fired cass by just measuring the cast to find out at what lenth the fired cass is the same as the outside diameter as the cast and will slip hold a bullet ,with this method you will not have to size or crimp your brass and it will last longer

[DoctorBill]

OK...I finished the two boxes of Magtech 24 ga Brass.

Here are the 41 that I had success with...cost $54.69 (includes shipping).
$1.33 each - not too shabby !



and here are the ones that went South on me....



Most are my fault - going too fast, too much lube, some I couldn't correct
a fold no matter what. I usually squash bad brass so no poor bugger
finds it for sale somewhere and wastes his/her money....

Some, I think, were defects in the Brass case which seemed to form folds
no matter how slow and careful I was.

At least, I like to think that was the reason !

I am done now - the 577/450 Brass I now have (89) will last me until the
Cosmos re-collapses back onto itself or until our National debt is paid off...
whichever comes first.

DoctorBill

[Buckshot]

.............I'm still waiting to hear what the guy at Gadzooks Caseforming Faktory said about his hepper who shipped 18 cases instead of the 20 you paid for? Maybe you'd better re-read the fine print. Possibly it said you could PAY for 20 and they'd ship whatever they felt like shipping, and you'd do well to be pleased they shipped anything at all? I mean, SERIOUSLY, what's the idea?

Wonder how long I'd last if I quit putting the lube holes in Lyman/RCBS lube size dies? They're a tedious pain, so maybe I should.

Was the owner's name Lester?



..................Buckshot

[loiner1965]

might try the lube suggested on this thread as i have lyman sizing wax here which i know is brilliant

[powderburnerr]

Dr, bill , the cases you rejected , might be worth the time to load once and fire , just to see if they blow out and are serviceable , I have had occasion to shoot dented cases and they preformed , sometimes they even lasted, you are not shooting a high intensity ctg, here and as such the brass is a lot more forgiving, might increase your presentage of good cases

[Lead pot]

No I have never dealt with the Man, but I can see his point too.