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Thread: 450/577 Martini Henry

  1. #21
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Groaner!!

    :takinWiz:
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarok View Post
    I have a Lee mold made just for the Martini..drops a .468/.469 bullet...with lube grooves.

    For lube I use a 50/40/10 beeswax/crisco/canola oil mix...that in reality is probably more like 60/30/10..so the stuff thick enough for summer use.

    I shoot these out of two BSA MkII rifles..and a Enfield MkIV(supposidly larger bore..don't think it is though)..works great in all three guns.
    Ragnarok,

    There are 3 "types" of the Mark IV Martini-Henry rifles. Unofficially designated A, B and C. The type "A" was converted from the .402 Martini-Enfield rifles, rebored to 577-450. These have the same type of front sight as the earlier Mark rifles, and have larger bores due to re-boring. The "B" was also converted and re-bored, but the front sight is on a ramp, unlike earlier rifles. The "C" type also has the ramp style front sight, but has new made barrels and (not counting service wear) are supposed to be the same bore diameter as the Mark I through III rifles. Yours may be a "C" type, with the smaller bore.

  3. #23
    Boolit Man Cannoneer's Avatar
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    Paper patching cast lead bullets.

    Quote Originally Posted by lebl468 View Post
    I got a Martini Henery coming next week, would like to paper patch for it. Never done it before, looking for a push in the right direction, thinking of using a 400gr mould ment for my 45-70. Any one loading for one of these bad boys?
    One of the best books on paper patching is by Paul Matthews titled "THE PAPER JACKET". It is published by Wolf Publishers out of Arizona. This is the book to get if you want detailed information on the how to's and with what types of paper.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
    DoctorBill's Avatar
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    I have three of Paul Matthews books !

    The one you mentioned and Loading for the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge and Shooting the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle.

    Nice books - cheaper purchased via Amazon.com and free shipping if over $50.

    Yes - RMulhern - GROAN !

    The difference between $23 (LEE) with handles and $80 (RCBS) without handles.....GROAN !

    DoctorBill
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Hey!..."Groan" all you want...the mold makes a bullit that works in my rifles..I never understood the RCBS designation of '.465-480'..this must reflect the bullets after sizing...'cause they do dump out of the mold at from .468-.469...just like the guy that recomended the mold told me it would.

    I think My MkIV is a 'B' version..has the longer knox-form..ramp front sight...got a Wilkinson Sword Company bayonet..and won't take a spike. I've never slugged it..figuring if it shot well with what i provide..why bother.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master

    midnight's Avatar
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    I helped my brother work up loads for his 577-450s. He has about 7 or 8 of them, Mark I, II, III, IV. We went the really expensive way. We got a Corbin press and swaging dies for a 0.452 dia smooth sided bullet for paper patching. We use pure beeswax for the grease cookie. Check out your chamber with a chamber cast. The Lee dies sized the neck so small you could slip the mouth of a fired case over the neck of a sized case.

    Bob
    Si hostes visibilis, etiam tu

  7. #27
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Groan!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarok View Post
    Hey!..."Groan" all you want...the mold makes a bullit that works in my rifles..I never understood the RCBS designation of '.465-480'..this must reflect the bullets after sizing...'cause they do dump out of the mold at from .468-.469...just like the guy that recomended the mold told me it would.

    I think My MkIV is a 'B' version..has the longer knox-form..ramp front sight...got a Wilkinson Sword Company bayonet..and won't take a spike. I've never slugged it..figuring if it shot well with what i provide..why bother.
    That's not what brought the 'groaner'; rather the thought of $9.00 a piece brass!!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    You make brass from 24ga shotgun shells...it's a slow process...if you charged by the hour may not be cheap...If you make your own .577/.450 brass from 24ga shotshells..you should also own a .577 Snider..that way any cases you screw up turning into Martini brass..can be made into Sniders..

    At first I was a bit leery about using the balloon head shot-shells...but once I made a bunch and loaded them a few times..they are fine..and fairly cheap. The main disadvantage being an even larger capacity than the already huge solid head brass.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Ragnarok - My "GROAN" was because you said it was a LEE Mold and those cost about 25%
    of what an RCBS Mold costs and RCBS Molds come w/o the handles !

    You got my hopes up just to dash them with water....

    So....GROAN !

    RMulhern - I bought 577/450 Martini-Henry Brass for $3.39 each from Buffaloarms.com in
    lots of 10. Got 30 for $101.70 plus shipping. GROAN.....

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 11-21-2011 at 07:41 PM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    You can buy the magtec 24ga hulls from midway or probably Grafs..use your Lee dies..and make them yourself...it ain't that hard...just anneal your shotgun brass down below where the shoulder will be...stick a shotgun hull in the shell-holder with minimal lube..just start your sizing die in the press threads..and just take tiny chunks at a time..screwing the die down a bit each stroke...the most critical part is the very start...take tiny bites until the shoulder starts to form into a neck..once the neck starts forming you can speed up and take slightly bigger bites....once you bottom out the die on the shellholder you can trim the case to length..and you done converted a 24ga Magtec shotgun shell into a .577/.450 case...if the mouth starts to wrinkle..STOP..try iron the wrinkle out..or grind the mouth off a bit and deburr..try again..if it keeps wrinkling/buckling..toss it in the Snider pile

    cases you ruin..save..'cause you can make these into .577 Sniders...uhmm..sometimes the magtec/CBC brass have oversize primer pockets..that's about all I can tellya' about .577/.450 brass...I have about 60 solid head drawn brass..all Ten-X(probably Jamison made)..had to trim many of the rims down because they wouldn't chamber in one or the others of my rifles. I've got 42 CBC shotshells turned into Martini brass out of 50..the rest I jacked up learning the deal..and these will salvage into Sniders.

    The shotshells are easy to turn into Sniders..just trim to length, anneal, and stuff them into the sizing die...Takes some patience to make them into Martini Henry cases..but it ain't too bad. I ruined about three shotshells before I gott a good bottleneck case..then I was off and running..just screwing one up now and then when I got in to big a hurry.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Well, first off my LEE DIE reduces the neck way below what my rifle fire forms
    the cases to. I don't even know what the LEE Die sizes the neck to !

    Then, I understood that you need a Die that resizes the neck to something
    midway from the Magtec cases to the 577/450 neck size for the first pass,
    then you go to the LEE Die for the final pass.

    If I could get the LEE die neck opened up to where my Martini opens them
    (0.508 top - 0.516 bottom), then I wouldn't be fighting the case so much.

    I thought someone said there was some size of LEE Rifle Die that would get you to
    that midway point.... (?) If there is, then one of those could be got from LEE for
    under $30, probably.

    BUT - you know - once I have my 50 cases, since they'll last forever if I don't resize
    them.....why would I need to make any more ?


    Fifty rounds at a time is probably something I wouldn't shoot up anyway.

    Unless another war with the Zulus starts and they drafted me into it !

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 11-05-2011 at 01:48 AM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy loiner1965's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post
    Well, first off my LEE DIE reduces the neck way below what my rifle fire forms
    the cases to. I don't even know what the LEE Die sizes the neck to !

    Then, I understood that you need a Die that resizes the neck to something
    midway from the Magtec cases to the 577/450 neck size for the first pass,
    then you go to the LEE Die for the final pass.

    If I could get the LEE die neck opened up to where my Martini opens them
    (0.508 top - 0.516 bottom), then I wouldn't be fighting the case so much.

    I thought someone said there was some size of LEE Rifle Die that would get you to
    that midway point.... (?) If there is, then one of those could be got from LEE for
    under $30, probably.

    BUT - you know - once I have my 50 cases, since they'll last forever if I don't resize
    them.....why would I need to make any more ?


    Fifty rounds at a time is probably something I wouldn't shoot up anyway.

    Unless another war with the Zulus starts and they drafted me into it !

    DoctorBill
    most people bore out the lee sizing die to 9/16 and use that to form the case then use another lee full sizing die to finish off after triming....i have around 40 converted cases and are all extremely well made

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy
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    Actually, the Lee die is the best 577-450 die around. Why? Because it is the only one that will resize brass so that it will chamber in just about all chambers. Don't forget that the round was in existence before SAAMI or CIP was thought up, there is a myriad different chamber configurations for that round. Make the die bigger, and you potentially have an issue with sized brass not chambering in some rifles. Which would you prefer? brass sized dowwn too much, or brass that won't chamber ? I know which one I would prefer...
    FWIW, you can perfectly use the Lee die to form the Magtech brass - I do it all the time. A bit harder, a bit more loss - but it works. Pretty time-consuming though.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    I'll repeat...you got the Lee dies..ok..you need some 24ga brass shotshells..Magtec/CBC will work...anneal them down below the point where the .577/.450 shoulder will be...just start the sizing die in your press...run the case up..and work the die down a 1/4 or 1/16 thread at a time..go slooow...once you have a case formed..trim to length...it's that easy..don't need 'intermediate dies'...just the stuff mentioned.

    The gurus over at the British Militaria forum coached me on this..it works. This or buy brass.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    There is a guy in Montana I think that machined 577-450 cases from brass rod. You could specify case capacity. Those would only need a little neck sizing if that. It was a one man company named Mountain something. If anyone really needs to know how to get ahold of him I could get the info for you. This was a few years ago and they were only about a buck apiece.

    Bob
    Last edited by midnight; 11-07-2011 at 06:12 PM.
    Si hostes visibilis, etiam tu

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
    DoctorBill's Avatar
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    I ordered and received 50 Magtech 24 Ga Brass Shotgun Shells from Buffaloarms.com for $54 total.

    I am trying to reform one just with the LEE 577/450 DIE in order to see how it works.

    Hard work ! Going reeeaaalleee slooowly....annealing as I go....

    Here is where I am at right now.



    I use Castor Oil as a lube (Parashooter's way).

    I have annealed twice to the stage shown in the photo.
    Now I should trim off the excess over OAL to continue.

    To Those Who Have Done This - what length should one trim the original 24 Ga
    Brass Magtech case to in the beginning so that one doesn't have to trim along the way ?

    Later....I annealed again and suddenly it was much easier going !
    Seems annealing is the key !

    Also - I have the DIE way up in the RCBS Press and get maximum leverage at the bottom
    of the stroke.
    Then I screw the DIE in another turn and do it again.
    When it gets difficult, I will anneal again and keep going.



    This might make a nice Winter Project - one a day.....
    A Cartridge a day keeps the psychiatrist away.

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 11-21-2011 at 07:41 PM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy
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    You're right, annealing is the key (hot enough but not too much, and far enough down) - that and making sure the case mouth is nice and smooth to start with. When your annealing is just right and you're in the stage of the 2nd case in your pics, then usually 2 more steps is all it takes - just don't forget to use just enough lube (not enough, and they'll stick, too much, and the shoulder will dimple).
    As you will know by now, it is a case of just enough that will work smoothly. It does take quite a bit of time and effort to make these cases, but if you have the time...

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
    DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Here is my first Magtech 24 gauge Brass Shotgun case reformed to a 577-450 using the LEE Die Set.



    It is actually done in this photo, I just put it back in the jar lid with water to
    show how I annealed the body of the case in order to get it into the LEE Die.

    Heated where shown enough to get that color change then picked it up with
    some gas pliers and dropped it in water.

    About 3/8 ths inch of water in the cap protects the cartridge base from getting too hot.

    The last part was not all that bad.

    How can I trim the neck off square w/o buying a LEE Martini-Henry case length trimmer ?
    Once they are trimmed, I don't believe I'll need to trim them very much, if at all, later on.

    OK ! One out of 50....49 to go ! One a day thru the Winter months....


    Has one small dimple just below the shoulder - First firing should form it all out.

    Considering that Jameson Brass costs $3.39 in lots of ten, this isn't a bad deal !
    I paid $1.08 each for the cases (two boxes) and will save $116 by doing these 50 reformings.

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 11-09-2011 at 11:17 PM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DoctorBill;1457819]I ordered and received 50 Magtech 24 Ga Brass Shotgun Shells from Buffaloarms.com for $54 total.

    I am trying to reform one just with the LEE 577/450 DIE in order to see how it works.

    Hard work ! Going reeeaaalleee slooowly....annealing as I go....

    Here is where I am at right now.



    I use Castor Oil as a lube (Parashooter's way).

    I have annealed twice to the stage shown in the photo.
    Now I should trim off the excess over OAL to continue.

    To Those Who Have Done This - what length should one trim the original 24 Ga
    Brass Magtech case to in the beginning so that one doesn't have to trim along the way ?

    Later....I annealed again and suddenly it was much easier going !
    Seems annealing is the key !

    Also - I have the DIE way up in the RCBS Press and get maximum leverage at the bottom
    of the stroke.
    Then I screw the DIE in another turn and do it again.
    When it gets difficult, I will anneal again and keep going.



    This might make a nice Winter Project - one a day.....
    A Cartridge a day keeps the psychiatrist away.

    DoctorBill

    If you check the IMA website's M-H Mark IV page, or go on You Tube directly, there is a video about loading for the .577-450. It shows one way to anneal and form the case from the Magtech brass shell. Might help to see it done. Good luck, you'll appreciate those cases more than any you could buy.

    Ed

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    I only anneal the Magtec shells once...and trim after I get them formed. I made a steel pipe sleeve of appropriate length to sit over the neck..and just gently grind the little bit that's too long off the neck..then file it smooth and chamfer the inside and outside.

    Primer pockets....I had a couple of the new CBC/Magtec cases that the primer pockets were too big..primers just fall out!....Of course ya' don't figure this out until you laborously make a .577/.450 case out of the dud case..

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check